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Old 09-13-2018, 08:53 PM   #1
Igor4U
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Default Last Ditch Maneuvers

Despite your best Max Performance Turn, the Bandit is able to pull Lead and bring his Guns to Bear. You have only a Split Second to Live or Die. Will you be coming home for Supper, or standing in Line at the Pearly Gates? Only a supreme last ditch maneuver will do - hope you have one up your sleeve ready to go.

I've been re-watching the History Channel's Military Aviation Documentary Series "Dogfights'. I've come across two Aerial Engagements where the targeted Aircraft uses a rather unconventional (IMHO) Last Ditch Maneuver to evade impending Death or Destruction. Here are the Two engagements:


Dogfights P-51 Mustang (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 10:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TolhfyNrCkM

Date: 2-Nov-1944
Pilot: Lt Col (then Capt) Donald Bryan
Engagement: P-51D vs Me-109
Scenario: P-51 in a Hard Left Turn with Me-109 approaching Guns Solution
Last Ditch Maneuver: Snap Full Aft Stick - Full Bottom Rudder - Full Forward Stick - then Neutralize Stick


The Last Gunfighter (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 32:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXNEiMYExY

Date: 14-Dec-1967
Pilot: Richard Schaffert
Engagement: F-8 Crusader vs MiG-17
Scenario: F-8 in a Hard Left Turn (get Bounced) with MiG-17s on his tail firing Guns/Cannon
Last Ditch Maneuver: Agressive Pitch Down Forward Stick - Full Bottom Rudder


MiG Killers of the USS Midway (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 30:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQVehFjvaI

Date: 23-May-1972 Vietnam
Pilot: Caot (then LtCmdr) Ron 'Mugs' McKeown
Engagement: USN F-4 Phanton vs MiG-17
Scenario: F-4 tracking MiG-17 for a Heater Shot when it gets bounced from behind by MiG-17 left 8 o'Clock in Guns Range
Last Ditch Maneuver: Back Flip (Snappy Departure from Controlled Flight): Full Forward Stick & Buttom Rudder, follwed by Full Aft Stick & Top Rudder, Unload and F-4 Recovers, MiG-17 forced out in Front

All of these Aircraft had conventional Flight Controls (with Pilot in Charge) - I'm wondering if modern Aircraft with Flight Control Computers and Fly-by-Wire Systems would respond accordingly by letting the Pilot fly (nearly) Out-of-Control, or at least past the normal Aircraft Control Limits ?


What are your tried and true (or trial and error) Last Ditch Maneuvers ? Or aint ya Tellin.
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Last edited by Igor4U; 09-17-2018 at 08:16 PM. Reason: additionadd
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:11 PM   #2
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Biggest bullshit show ever made.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:21 PM   #3
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You perform a gun defense to be a difficult target to hit. Fancy maneuvers won't help you too much. You have to move out of plane.

How to do a "Guns D" is e.g. described by CNATRA:
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:27 AM   #4
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I'm an expert at performing variations of hammerhead. In order for a hammerhead to be successful requires an overeager opponent who is unaware of his aircraft's limitations.It also requires he be dangerously close, so is truly a last ditch maneuver. A misjudged attempt will result in setting yourself up for a kill shot.

Scenario A : Enemy is energy superior or too eager
At the last moment you go directly vertical, chopping throttle, deploying brakes and or flaps (flaps help maintain controllability) and maneuvering gently to avoid being run over as the enemy overshoots. If you keep track of him, it is often possible to roll and pursue possibly even taking a snapshot.

Scenario B : Enemy is energy inferior, but stupid enough to follow anyway
Go vertical, enemy follows, stalls out first, you flip and either pursue or, more often, take a snap shot while he's floundering.

While often performed vertically, they don't have to be, I've dome similar stuff horizontally, but it is even more imperative the conditions are precisely right.

A good pilot (top 20%) will never get close enough for you to get him with something this obvious, trying to is nearly guaranteed to get you killed. It's almost exclusively used against noobs and mediocre pilots. In order for it to work, your opponent has to set himself up so completely that by the time he realises he's closing on you it's already too late.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleFox View Post
Biggest bullshit show ever made.
What he said

+1
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:28 AM   #6
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Default Curious - How Come ?

'EagleFox' said: "Biggest bullshit show ever made."

'Baco' siad: "What he said +1 "

=====================================================================

I never knew that Military Aviation Enthusiasts considered the TV Series 'Dogfights' a Piece of Crapola.

'Dogfights' is presented sort of documentary style with interviews of the actual combatants wherever possible. I would think this would lend credibility to the Simulated/Animated Re-Creations; although I do think the Animations tend to be over-simplified and cartoonish.

Just Curious about why you Fellers thinks 'Dogfights' is so Bogus ?



PS: Back to the original Topic; I found this:

LAST-DITCH MANEUVERS
http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-...neuvers-44.htm
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:59 AM   #7
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History channel in general is bogus. History as a loose theme. I mean, it's the same channel that airs shit like Ancient Aliens. Nuff said. The only thing less reliable than Wikipedia is something somebody saw on History Channel. It also tends to be excessively pro-'Murica.

Case and point, they compared the Apache Longbow and Hind, declaring the Hind inferior and poorly built and as their primary proof they offered that the Hinds had been withdrawn from Afghanistan due to large numbers of them chopping off their own tails. While technically possible, I've never seen any reference to a Hind being lost in such a matter much less on a scale that would result in being withdrawn from an AO over it. Logically if it was THAT severe they wouldn't fly them.

Point is, a great deal of what's on THC is bs, and nothing on it is vetted. Not EVERYTHING obviously, but it's not a reliable source for anything.
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:46 PM   #8
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This show has great graphics and storytelling but tends to exagerate things quite a bit...
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Old 09-15-2018, 06:47 PM   #9
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op, you're perpetuating the hollywood myth that somehow fbw negates the unpredictability of human decision making

when it comes down to it there is one thing that gets you out of the line of fire and that's geometry. the fundamental goal of flying aids is to keep you moving so you can continue to create/solve geometric problems, and keeping them around will help keep you alive far longer than without.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by probad View Post
op, you're perpetuating the hollywood myth that somehow fbw negates the unpredictability of human decision making

when it comes down to it there is one thing that gets you out of the line of fire and that's geometry. the fundamental goal of flying aids is to keep you moving so you can continue to create/solve geometric problems, and keeping them around will help keep you alive far longer than without.

Alternatively, you can let him close and hit the breaks
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