Polychop Simulations OH-58D Kiowa

With the M I tend to shoot static behind a hill, I search the contact (sometimes with help from the GCI), and that way you only care for altitude. Pop up, launch, pop down, I killed 3 AAA with that metod in 1 sortie.

Yeah, I've "learned" to do that too, but I don't always have the luxury of cover to hind behind.

ED seems to indicate side by side multiplayer is an issue. The Cobra, Hind and Apache lend themselves to a more proven implementation.

 

For side by side why not just publish the CRM for each position and have control operation limited to each spot.

 

 

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Do you have a source for that? Sorry but I have every reason to believe side by side multicrew is totally possible, particularly in the style of the SA 342 (back when it's multicrew was functional) where the CPG has access to some controls, and the pilot others. The Tomcat has front and read pit synch, heck as a RIO using VR I can reach forward and turn on pilot switches! ED is planning to release side by side multicrew for the Huey in the near future, so I can't help but reject the assertion that somehow side by side multicrew is less achievable than front seat back seat. It's the same technology, and many seem to have forgotten that the SA342 launched with very functional multicrew. I spent a lot of time using it!

I hope Polychop will revise their decision and plan multicrew. It's a must for this module and the only thing holding me back from a day one buy.

Do you have a source for that? Sorry but I have every reason to believe side by side multicrew is totally possible, particularly in the style of the SA 342 (back when it's multicrew was functional) where the CPG has access to some controls, and the pilot others. The Tomcat has front and read pit synch, heck as a RIO using VR I can reach forward and turn on pilot switches! ED is planning to release side by side multicrew for the Huey in the near future, so I can't help but reject the assertion that somehow side by side multicrew is less achievable than front seat back seat. It's the same technology, and many seem to have forgotten that the SA342 launched with very functional multicrew. I spent a lot of time using it!

 

I hope Polychop will revise their decision and plan multicrew. It's a must for this module and the only thing holding me back from a day one buy.

The issue with "multicrew" side by side is/are desync issue(s). With front and back seat the back seater generally can't mess with the stick controls. Nor can he flip the same switches that the pilot can and vice versa.

And yeah I want the OH-58 to be multicrew. Better yet with some basic jester ai for the gunner.

The only time a kiowa, or Apache for that matter, will fly anyone on the wings is to extract downed crewmembers from another aircraft. This is not a normal task for this aircraft and was developed as a contingency to prevent capture in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I can personally confirm this (aircrew or a small team of Forward Observers).... super uncomfortable as well, but it would be cool to have a mission where you picked up a downed crew and it be modeled.

... Better yet with some basic jester ai for the gunner.

This. Sven, how about it?

Sorry but I have every reason to believe side by side multicrew is totally possible, particularly in the style of the SA 342 (back when it's multicrew was functional) where the CPG has access to some controls, and the pilot others.

IMHO that was a big part of the problem. It should be up to the pilots who operates which switch. Apparently the only way for Polychop to do a shared pit at all was to have a clear-cut distinction, though.

And even then the sync between the two seats was... lacking, to put it mildly. Though I have to admit I haven't tried it in MP in ages, but from what I gather the problems probably weren't entirely solved in the meantime.

The Tomcat has front and read pit synch, heck as a RIO using VR I can reach forward and turn on pilot switches!

Oddly enough, in the Tomcat that's non-intentional (as far as I'm aware). ;)

ED is planning to release side by side multicrew for the Huey in the near future, so I can't help but reject the assertion that somehow side by side multicrew is less achievable than front seat back seat.

ED (BST, originally) planned to release this feature before the module left early access.

So what we have is a plan to achieve something by a company that has always been close to ED and has since been incorporated, and we have a very half-working solution by a third party.

Like I said before, I'd rather wait for this feature to be fleshed out, and see a fully working shared pit implementation, rather than getting another semi-working, semi-screwed attempt at it, which even in its broken state is probably going to cost the developer massive amounts of development time.

IMHO that was a big part of the problem. It should be up to the pilots who operates which switch. Apparently the only way for Polychop to do a shared pit at all was to have a clear-cut distinction, though.

 

 

 

And even then the sync between the two seats was... lacking, to put it mildly. Though I have to admit I haven't tried it in MP in ages, but from what I gather the problems probably weren't entirely solved in the meantime.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oddly enough, in the Tomcat that's non-intentional (as far as I'm aware). ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ED (BST, originally) planned to release this feature before the module left early access.

 

 

 

So what we have is a plan to achieve something by a company that has always been close to ED and has since been incorporated, and we have a very half-working solution by a third party.

 

 

 

Like I said before, I'd rather wait for this feature to be fleshed out, and see a fully working shared pit implementation, rather than getting another semi-working, semi-screwed attempt at it, which even in its broken state is probably going to cost the developer massive amounts of development time.

What semi-working feature? Do you mean as in the way the Gazelle released multicrew or multicrew technology in DCS in general? The Tomcat leverages DCS to create outstanding multicrew that I personally (with many hours as a RIO) have had almost zero issue with. The Gazelles multicrew was absolutely usable on release, however it's bugs were not addresses and then became worse as time passed (as most bugs will). ED recently announced the Huey will be getting multicrew, so it's not like I'm mentioning something from years and years ago.

There is no evidence that the F-14s cross controllability between pits was an accident or somehow unintended, if you are aware of a source for that let me know. It's clear to me that a lot of work went into making pilot and RIO synched, ergo pilot and RIO can use each other's pit. The technology is there, the sim can handle it. Polychops ability to leverage the technology may be the issue at hand.

Ultimately I return to my point that it's a must for the OH 58, as much as it was a must in the F-14. The real bird requires two crew memebers and it just will be a hard sell for me if we don't get it this time around, so I hope if nothing else Polychop will note the public interest in this much needed feature.

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The issue with "multicrew" side by side is/are desync issue(s). With front and back seat the back seater generally can't mess with the stick controls. Nor can he flip the same switches that the pilot can and vice versa.

 

 

 

And yeah I want the OH-58 to be multicrew. Better yet with some basic jester ai for the gunner.

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In my opinion, they need to get the aircraft right both systems and flight model. Once that’s released in a complete state then work on multi crew.

As much as I can’t wait to fly this aircraft, polychop needs to make up for the state of the Gazelle for the last several years. Getting the Kiowa right will be a big step toward fixing that reputation.

Yes, agree with you Eagle, we cannot really call the ABRIS multi function, it is more an advanced FMS with moving map. I am not saying the ABRIS is simplistic though. After 10 years I still have to learn many of its capabilities.

I use it primarily for the situational awareness via map and datalink targeting. But I as well build flight plans with it, search towns by their names, and have a HSI on it. I have never played the tetris on it, and never will. But for what it is, it is so far best moving map there is for tactical and strategic use.

It is nice how one can get the flight information with it, and especially the route you have been flying. And combining it with a Shkval and HMS one can use it greatway to map the tactics and command flight around the enemy. And what makes it very powerful is especially that one rotary knob with push function. Easy and simple to use in heat of combat.

What semi-working feature? Do you mean as in the way the Gazelle released multicrew [...]

Yes.

ED recently announced the Huey will be getting multicrew, so it's not like I'm mentioning something from years and years ago.

Again, Multicrew was a Huey and Hip feature right from the start.

It was never officially "un-announced", they just said it takes a little more time.

So if it takes BST/ED several years to implement this feature, even after several tandem pit modules have been released by themselves and 3rd parties, it seems a bit of a stretch to assert that it's sufficiently easy to achieve and Polychop just have to do it right.

Ultimately I return to my point that it's a must for the OH 58

Yeah, it sure wouldn't hurt to have it. :beer:

I'd still rather see them release a module with great flight characteristics and good systems modelling, instead of doing yet another unfinished attempt at Multicrew.

Anyway, with the latest information from Polychop it seems like they might give it a shot, if ED gives them access to the necessary API, so I'm hoping even more that this feature will come really soon for the Huey and the Hip.

In fact Kiowa is magnificent. :lol: :megalol:

I haven't done a lot of looking into this module as far as what Polychop as said one way or another. But, if they want to be truly faithful to the airframe and its mission, they will HAVE to include firing M4 from the CPG station. It's not a technique but an actual crew task that they had to train and was included during their aerial gunnery. To prove this, you only need look no further than, TC 1-248 OH-58D Aircrew Training Manual, Task 2133 - ENGAGE TARGET WITH THE M4 SERIES CARBINE.

So hopefully they take that into account when they are working on the module. Now the REAL thing that I want to see included would be tossing smoke grenades out the door to mark targets.

Smoke grenades are implemented. M4 is not. In DCS, the M4 would be of little use considering the way infantry AI is implemented. It would make more sense to have something like this in Arma3.

And wouldn’t it have to be “mounted” to a fixed point, eg. centre of the window?

I would just like to do all the same things that my pilots did on a daily basis. Whether it is effective against the bad dudes on the ground or not. That's just me though. :)

That’s just it though, I doubt they’d be able to have 6-DOF. Would an effectively fixed mount rifle be good enough?

Is aiming rockets/mg w Kiowa solved by marker pen on cockpit window and adjusting fire throught tracer etc?

A part of NOSIG

Hi,

aiming and firing the gun or rockets is done with the greese pencil marker and the tracers yes, but can be aided by the MMS through the MMS forward mode in which the camera can be slaved to a straight forward position that will show a picture of the target straight ahead of the helicopter, which can be a very good aid when targets are small, like infantry or far in the distance when you use the rockets.

I hope it helped

Smoke grenades are implemented. M4 is not. In DCS, the M4 would be of little use considering the way infantry AI is implemented. It would make more sense to have something like this in Arma3.

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:thumbup:

I respectfully see it differently. Infantry in DCS would be totally up to the task of being a great M4 Target, particularly with how detailed the newer models from ED have been, they just need a damage model tweak.

 

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Is the project still on track

It would be quite difficult to implement M4 use in a good way. They probably need to make

a switchable gunner station (like on Gazelle Minigun, Huey or Mighty Eight) just to get the M4 pointing out of the OH-58.

Not saying it is impossible, but looking at the Gazelle Minigun I don't think the M4 will make a lot of sense, especially for a helicopter with high workload but no multicrew or AI gunners.

Any chance we can get a new video or live stream with the Kiowa, please.

It would be quite difficult to implement M4 use in a good way. They probably need to make

a switchable gunner station (like on Gazelle Minigun, Huey or Mighty Eight) just to get the M4 pointing out of the OH-58.

 

Not saying it is impossible, but looking at the Gazelle Minigun I don't think the M4 will make a lot of sense, especially for a helicopter with high workload but no multicrew or AI gunners.

Having a lot of experience in Army Aviation, I can tell you that while the M4 being used by OH 58 crew isn't at all unheard of it's probably not as common as some would think. All aircraft (include the Chinooks and Blackhawks I crewed) carry M4s somewhere on board for the crew, unless the crew is armed with another weapon system. The crew is also all carrying M9s (soon to be the new M17 Sig!) I can neither confirm nor deny if I personally fired my M4 and M9 out of a Chinook :)

The reason the OH 58 crew using the M4 is rather well know is because the 58 is the only Army chopper that flies without the doors in an attack role, and therefore has the opportunity for the crew to do crazy sh$t like shooting shoulder fired rifles at ground combatants... Either way it would be a great feature and I think it could be implemented in a fairly straightforward manner.

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