Questions about the MiG19

Hi all, i don't have the MiG19 but i would like to know a bit about it.

I found some snippets from the web about its characteristics and it sounds really fun, i'd like to know whether these traits are in the Razbam MiG19.

So first up;

Adverse yaw;

"The MiG-19, on the other hand an aerodynamic problem where it would ‘adverse yaw’ at low speeds, often snapping out of hard turns during low speed manoeuvring. One had to assist a hard turn with a bit of inside rudder to keep it from ‘adverse yawing’."

Also;

"There were quite a few bad qualities but the worst, in my opinion, was the thick wing which made transonic speeds (just short of Mach 1) very rough to ride through and almost uncontrollable, although it employed ‘short arm’ and ‘long arm’ technology to cater for it.”

Are these effects in the Razbam MiG19?

Hello Big Nuts,

Are these effects in the Razbam MiG19?

In any way.

The aircraft described in those stories is an early series Chinese J-6 used in Pakistan, the copy of the Soviet MiG-19S. Even these two aircraft have differences regarding production quality, engines and avionics.

The aircraft in DCS is the MiG-19P, a heavier, slightly slower, radar variant of the MiG-19 which differ a lot from a J-6.

"There were quite a few bad qualities but the worst, in my opinion, was the thick wing which made transonic speeds (just short of Mach 1) very rough to ride through and almost uncontrollable, although it employed ‘short arm’ and ‘long arm’ technology to cater for it.”

This statement is completely wrong because of two facts.

First, as proven by the trim law, speeds and stick effort charts of the original MiG-19, the aircraft requires almost no trim up to M = 1.0, indicating a relatively smooth ride through the transonic region.

Second, the "short arm" and "long arm" technology, a.k.a ARU-2V system, is not there to improve the aircraft behavior in the transonic region, but to control the aircraft pitch response through all the range of speeds and altitudes, making sure it won´t go beyond its limits.

Hi, ok so there's no adverse yaw in the P version, or transonic difficulties?

No adverse yaw around 300-400 Km/h as far I can tell. Perhaps a little bit coming out of turns, but hard to tell (Not that adverse yaw would be an issue if you've flown on gliders... )

Flight is very smooth. Really easy to trim. I don't miss the autopilot.

 

This statement is completely wrong because of two facts.

 

 

....indicating a relatively smooth ride through the transonic region.

Are 'stick effort' charts the determining factor?

The pilot interview mentioned transonic buffet, is the wing design different in the P version?

Second, the "short arm" and "long arm" technology, a.k.a ARU-2V system, is not there to improve the aircraft behavior in the transonic region, but to control the aircraft pitch response through all the range of speeds and altitudes, making sure it won´t go beyond its limits.

So perhaps the system limited the pilot's ability to abuse the aircraft in this regime and therefore helped the situation?

Im really interested in DCS for it's flight model realism, it's what has me hooked and why i have flown since the early lomac demo days. It satisfies my need to fly, and that's why im being very careful before i buy a module to make sure it has the necessary flight model detail that i need.

Thank's for your responses.

Anyways hope the fm evolves, it's sad to see sfm style birds back in dcs.

Anyways hope the fm evolves, it's sad to see sfm style birds back in dcs.

It is a good thing the MiG-19P is not one of them.

Anyways hope the fm evolves, it's sad to see sfm style birds back in dcs.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

you do know your favorite mig-21 also has the aru system right?

First, as proven by the trim law, speeds and stick effort charts of the original MiG-19, the aircraft requires almost no trim up to M = 1.0, indicating a relatively smooth ride through the transonic region.

I'm also not convinced at all that transonic buffeting is related to trimming. Radar presence and CoG position have almost nothing to do with it (MiG-19S = MiG-19P because of same wing)

http://www.razvanapetrei.com/rupdate-transonic-buffeting/

Radar presence and CoG position have almost nothing to do with it (MiG-19S = MiG-19P because of same wing)

When I mention the radar and CoG I´m not referring to the transonic buffeting.

Move on with them. They are only trolling. The module is fresh and will keep on improvements. Most of them will not use the Mig-19... I personally know some of them...

This lobby is part of all that ED is doing now. So whatever you do to make them understand will be useless.

When I mention the radar and CoG I´m not referring to the transonic buffeting.

What could cause the transonic buffeting in the J6 and/or Mig-19S, and not in the -P then? I don't mean to come across as critical or flaming, I'm just genuinely interested in the physics behind it!

So whatever you do to make them understand will be useless.

I have no problem with that. If they are trolling then other people that are really interested get to understand it better.:)

What could cause the transonic buffeting in the J6 and/or Mig-19S, and not in the -P then? I don't mean to come across as critical or flaming, I'm just genuinely interested in the physics behind it!

I´m not saying that the J-6 and MiG-19S have buffeting and the MiG-19P does not, I´m saying to take that pilot stories/anecdotes with a grain of salt.;)

I have no problem with that. If they are trolling then other people that are really interested get to understand it better.:)

 

 

 

I´m not saying that the J-6 and MiG-19S have buffeting and the MiG-19P does not, I´m saying to take that pilot stories/anecdotes with a grain of salt.;)

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

I am very happy with Mig-19 in general. There are issues but lot of them have been addressed by the developers. That need time.

Hi all, i don't have the MiG19 but i would like to know a bit about it.

 

I found some snippets from the web about its characteristics and it sounds really fun, i'd like to know whether these traits are in the Razbam MiG19.

 

So first up;

 

Adverse yaw;

 

 

 

"The MiG-19, on the other hand an aerodynamic problem where it would ‘adverse yaw’ at low speeds, often snapping out of hard turns during low speed manoeuvring. One had to assist a hard turn with a bit of inside rudder to keep it from ‘adverse yawing’."

 

 

Also;

 

"There were quite a few bad qualities but the worst, in my opinion, was the thick wing which made transonic speeds (just short of Mach 1) very rough to ride through and almost uncontrollable, although it employed ‘short arm’ and ‘long arm’ technology to cater for it.”

 

 

Are these effects in the Razbam MiG19?

..and post fra the Big Nuts 2017:

"I would like to know more about the harrier fm. Its an Afm not a pfm right? The main reason i play dcs is because the fm's are so realistic, mi8, mig15, sabre etc etc...

So how realistic is the harrier fm? I know the mirage had issues for a long time so im skeptical. I see a lot of modules in the works for razbam, im just worried dcs will start filling up with mediocre flight models which may break the magic for me. Ive seen the new harrier video and there is no mention of the fm, just 'oh wow it looks good and has shooty things on it'.

A concerned hard core dcs fan."

It walks like a duck.

..and post fra the Big Nuts 2017:

 

 

 

"I would like to know more about the harrier fm. Its an Afm not a pfm right? The main reason i play dcs is because the fm's are so realistic, mi8, mig15, sabre etc etc...

So how realistic is the harrier fm? I know the mirage had issues for a long time so im skeptical. I see a lot of modules in the works for razbam, im just worried dcs will start filling up with mediocre flight models which may break the magic for me. Ive seen the new harrier video and there is no mention of the fm, just 'oh wow it looks good and has shooty things on it'.

A concerned hard core dcs fan."

 

 

It walks like a duck.

Not being a real Harrier pilot but actually having flown real aircraft, and having some reservations about how "accurate" any of the FM's actually are. The Harrier flies like a FBW aircraft IMO, at least when compared to something like the F14 or Viggen, mig21 etc. No juddering/shuddering when pulling G's no real issues not using the rudder, it flies VERY smooth, much like the M2K. The problem is that the harrier isn't a FBW aircraft... Not having flown one IRL though who knows, and its still in EA so the FM might get updated. The VTOL characteristics seem sort of right, the plane is very susceptible to rolling, though it doesn't seem to model ground effect from what I can tell or any sort of transitioning from a hover to side of a ship to the deck.

The Harrier flies like a FBW aircraft IMO, at least when compared to something like the F14 or Viggen, mig21 etc. No juddering/shuddering when pulling G's no real issues not using the rudder, it flies VERY smooth, much like the M2K. The problem is that the harrier isn't a FBW aircraft...

Why a non FBW aircraft cannot fly smoothly?

I´m assuming that all the aircraft you have flown didn´t had FBW, because there would be no other way to compare and also that they had some kind of instability behavior in them, since they can´t have an unstable configuration, because you need FBW to fly those. I do know that many think that flying a real aircraft is an act of balance, while in reality and while not incorporating any form of FBW, many aircraft fly really smoothly.

Dear Pinello and whoever else claimed i was just trolling.....

It's called criticism, there's a difference.

I'm not doing this to 'cause trouble' im doing this to bring attention to the lack luster flight modelling in the hope that it will be corrected.

I bought the mirage when it came out and it felt like a ufo, and flew like one. Even years after its release it was the only bird buzzing around at 2k km/hr like it was nothing.

Harrier is a bit of a mess by all accounts, and the MiG19 surprise, feels like plastic.

So it looks like i was right to be worried about mediocre flight models hey Pinello?

I've been flying this sim since lomac demo, it is alarming to see this trend from a third party.

If fm means nothing to you just ignore.

Im sure there are many that feel the same way as me and it should be 'addressed' as it's a genuine 'concern'.

Just writing someone off as a troll is ignorant.

Why a non FBW aircraft cannot fly smoothly?

They can but a non-fbw performance aircraft with no quirks/personality?

It does make itself apparent to the user, even though its hard to quantify, other than performance graphs.

I'm not doing this to 'cause trouble' im doing this to bring attention to the lack luster flight modelling in the hope that it will be corrected.

 

...and the MiG19 surprise, feels like plastic.

Hard facts and data (charts and tables) have been provided in this very forum about the state of the MiG-19P flight model now and the coming updates: Repeating "I feel this is wrong" again and again is not useful, because flight models are not made with feelings.;)

Most important, this a MiG-19P related sub-forum. Any issue you have with the M2000 or Harrier FMs please post in their corresponding sub-forums.

Regarding the MiG-19 flight model, if you have any doubt regarding the different flight parameters and behavior you are welcome to post a performance chart of any of the parameters of the real aircraft and the actual recorded behavior of the simulated aircraft to compare next to it. Any proven wrong behavior will be recognized and fixed.

They can

Thanks:)

flight models are not made with feelings.;)

Well yours certainly aren't. ;)

Any news on Steam availability?