F-14B and AIM-7M

:helpsmilie: Hi, I’m trying to understand how AIM-7M works on F-14B.

When I was fighting an Su-27 within 10NM, I fired AIM-7M in STT mode at him. He entered notching immediately and dived down. I immediately told Jester to switch to P-STT and dived faster than him to stay lower than him, thus STT was kept the entire time. However, my AIM-7M lost track immediately after the Su-27 went into notching. The same happened to all my subsequent three launches until I was 1-2nm away and killed the Su-27 with AIM-9M and guns.

P-STT was maintained the entire time. Just AIM-7M cannot track the notching STT target.

Is this correct behavior of the missiles? Can someone tell me what is going on here. Thanks in advance!:thumbup:

You need to position yourself for a good launch. Keep stt lock, and fly yourself so that when you fire, the missile doesn’t have to steer too much to intercept the target. Remember the AIM7 is a bit ancient, and it’s not powered by magic. You just gotta practice with it until you get a feel for its capabilities.

Can you post a tacview file?

You need to position yourself for a good launch. Keep stt lock, and fly yourself so that when you fire, the missile doesn’t have to steer too much to intercept the target. Remember the AIM7 is a bit ancient, and it’s not powered by magic. You just gotta practice with it until you get a feel for its capabilities.

 

Can you post a tacview file?

Thank you for your reply. I centered the T to the wing mark when firing. Is that the ‘dot’ on the F-14? I’ll look for the tacview file when I’m back home tonight.

Hi, please take a look at the attached tacview files.

Forgive my primitive combat skills. I just wish to demonstrate a finding that AIM-7M fired from F-14B lost track very easily when the target went into notching. But AN/AWG-9 maintained the lock for the entire time in P-STT mode when I was lower than the target.

Edit:

Oh, I cannot upload tacview file in the forum... So I put them in a ZIP.

Tacview.zip

Ah, okay. Yeah you definitely just need to feel out the missile's best range. Especially against a super maneuverable fighter like the Su-27. The first missile is constantly changing its g-load, so it isn't losing track. There's no trouble with how you're using the radar, he's just outflying the missile. It was constantly changing its intercept trajectory, so it lost energy very quickly to the point where you actually flew further than it did. You fired from too far away, and he had more than enough room to maneuver.

If you never lost track, then I'm not 100% sure what happened with that second launch. It pulled 9 g in one direction, then immediately pulled 12 g in the other direction, then gave up. Looks to me like it might have picked up a radar reflection from all the chaff he was dropping, and guided on the wrong target. The more I watch it, the more i'm sure that's what happened.

The third launch definitely tried to hit a chaff bundle. In the tacview you can see exactly which one it went for.

I tried to reproduce your scenario. I'll attach another tacview file.

Edit: another slight technicality: if you maintained lock the entire time then the target never notched. He maneuvered to defend, but he never successfully entered your notch filter. (I've also been editing as I notice new things in the tacview. Hope it all helps.)

tacview.zip

DCS treats notching like Godmode usually. If you notch properly you will dump most anything fired at you. Its just nature of DCS.

STT close with Tomcat is bit of a mixed bag right now.

When going Pulse-STT rememeber to be below your target. I can't stress this enough. P-STT works best as a look-up mode. It can't be notched but if the target is below you, you will lose him in the ground clutter. (P-STT is very susceptible to ground clutter, unlike PD-STT)

When going Pulse-STT rememeber to be below your target. I can't stress this enough. P-STT works best as a look-up mode. It can't be notched but if the target is below you, you will lose him in the ground clutter. (P-STT is very susceptible to ground clutter, unlike PD-STT)

good point. I lost sight of that fact. :thumbup:

Guys he said he never lost lock ...

So can here aim7 still guide even if you switch from PD mode to P during the missile flight?

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When going Pulse-STT rememeber to be below your target. I can't stress this enough. P-STT works best as a look-up mode. It can't be notched but if the target is below you, you will lose him in the ground clutter. (P-STT is very susceptible to ground clutter, unlike PD-STT)

I never lost lock. I know I must stay lower than the target if I want to maintain lock.

Guys he said he never lost lock ...

 

So can here aim7 still guide even if you switch from PD mode to P during the missile flight?

 

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I also fired twice in P-STT mode. The missile tracks the target in the beginning, but will lost tracking as soon as the target went notching. However, the lock on my F-14 maintained all the time.

I also fired twice in P-STT mode. The missile tracks the target in the beginning, but will lost tracking as soon as the target went notching. However, the lock on my F-14 maintained all the time.

The second and third missiles lost track because of the chaff. Also: the target did not notch. read my second comment on the last page :)

You need to understand aerodynamic range for missile employment against maneuvering targets at different altitudes.

The second and third missiles lost track because of the chaff. Also: the target did not notch. read my second comment on the last page :)

Thank you for your very detailed analysis. I agree with you that the missiles went for the chaff. I'll definitely need more practice with the 7M to develop the 'feeling'.

Someone need to explain to me why a aim7 loses track when guiding aircraft never lost lock

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Someone need to explain to me why a aim7 loses track when guiding aircraft never lost lock

 

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Most probably due to chaff. Chaff modeling is quite simplistic in DCS. It could have also run out of energy if it was a long range shot.

Hello Guys.

I´ve troubles to understand the AIM-7 and i hope you can help me out. I tried to search via google and forums to understand the missile. Searched for optimum ranges and so on, but for my clearency i have to ask the community so, do i understand that correctly, that it absolutly does´nt matter, if you can hold a STT, cause the AIM 7 could still go for a Chaff?

Is that really in the spirit of the inventor? That sounds to me like, you wanted to tell a dog where it has to go, but he see´s a food and turned away .

and if it is like that, is the solution the SP PD Switch, wich the RIO can activate to avoid that problem? 
 

Thx in advance

SP PD should guide only off the SP PD radar mode and therefore not give a launch warning. Not sure if it’s better than pulse for guidance or chaff resistance. Set the aspect switch to nose if he try’s to beam. Will help the chaff resistance.

SP PD still uses CW illum. for homing so it should give a launch warning. 

SP PD refers to using PDI illumination, which still gives a launch warning. It has nothing to do with chaff resistance (in DCS anyway).

8 hours ago, Steff Bourne said:

cause the AIM 7 could still go for a Chaff?

Yes it can, because remember the AIM-7 has an onboard radar reciever that itself can be spoofed by chaff. Remember, the AWG-9 radar beam is not infinitely small; it still covers quite some volume at the target distance, and its totally possible for an AIM-7 to go after illuminated chaff, or even ground clutter. And if when the AWG-9 stops illuminating the chaff, the target may well be out of the missile FoV, and/or it has no idea where to look for it and the missile will loose guidance.

39 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

SP PD refers to using PDI illumination, which still gives a launch warning. It has nothing to do with chaff resistance (in DCS anyway).

Yes it can, because remember the AIM-7 has an onboard radar reciever that itself can be spoofed by chaff. Remember, the AWG-9 radar beam is not infinitely small; it still covers quite some volume at the target distance, and its totally possible for an AIM-7 to go after illuminated chaff, or even ground clutter. And if when the AWG-9 stops illuminating the chaff, the target may well be out of the missile FoV, and/or it has no idea where to look for it and the missile will loose guidance.

 

Ahaaaa very interesting. Thx for the explanation. Now I understand the Aim 7 a little bit more ✌. 

Frankly in PvP enviornment Aim7 in most situations just acts to scare off enemy into thinking that its actually 54 coming at him, so you can close in and finish him off with aim9