** F-14 Development Update: December 2018 **

I had some lobster buns in the morning…- delicious

:shifty:

No.

 

 

 

Pre-order = pay now delivery later.

 

Early access = initial delivery will not be feature complete.

 

 

 

You can buy an early access product, pre-order a product, or you can pre-order an early access product. They are totally mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

Pre-order is generally fine, it's the early access bit that causes controversy because it's much harder to define what you'll be getting and when.

Inviato dal mio Lenovo P2a42 utilizzando Tapatalk

The under $200's are just too close together and don't have great just off center response and have way too much center detent. Ok for Jets and probably not bad for a trike. But for a Taildragger, Especially a high performance Taildragger, you need to have room to dance. MFG with CAM5 should work pretty good.

Totally off topic: Yesterday tried out the CAM5 with the A2A 172 in FSX:SE. IMHO not enough rudder authority with even a minor crosswind. But it could be a setting thing. Quite fine however with the P51D at DCS.

No.

 

Pre-order = pay now delivery later.

Early access = initial delivery will not be feature complete.

 

You can buy an early access product, pre-order a product, or you can pre-order an early access product. They are totally mutually exclusive.

 

Pre-order is generally fine, it's the early access bit that causes controversy because it's much harder to define what you'll be getting and when.

It is not part of the contract/deal.

Product page and goods basket:

I was not referring to the F14 specifically; I was pointing out that the terms pre-order and early access are two completely separate things.

There is no mentioning of any early access during pre-purchase in the e-shop. You only pay for the final product (pre-ordering). Early Access is a goody granted later in development.

It is not part of the contract/deal.

 

Product page and goods basket:

It is an oversight not to mention it more specifically, but when you click more (on the E-store listing as well as the Products page), first bullet point:

"The simulation of both the A* and B model Tomcat, the A model following the B later during the Early Access period." They have undertaken to deliver the -A during the Early Access period, and deliver the -B earlier. Those are part of the terms. They have undertaken to provide Early Access, it's not a gratuity.

It is an oversight not to mention it more specifically, but when you click more (on the E-store listing as well as the Products page), first bullet point:

"The simulation of both the A* and B model Tomcat, the A model following the B later during the Early Access period." They have undertaken to deliver the -A during the Early Access period, and deliver the -B earlier. Those are part of the terms. They have undertaken to provide Early Access, it's not a gratuity.

Well, the people who threaten legal actions, at least should be aware, that the Product description in the shop (screenshot) and the final goodsbasket item (screenshot), which you actually ordered, is for an pre-purchase of the finished F-14A and B. That is what we bought...

I agree the threats of legal action are ridiculous. I was pointing out that providing the plane during Early Access is actually something HB is obliged to do, but they don't have to do it before the timetable they set out for themselves. I think you (Shagrat) and I generally have the same view of this.

Legal action is so ridiculous. Just do not buy anything else from the developer. If they cannot properly market and reach out to customers then pick another company that will.

What do they do with their plane?

Finalizing certain items that Cobra mentioned in post #1, dont forget that Pre-purchase and Early Access are 2 different things.

They will release sometime between now and the 21st March 2019. So, if you want to benefit from the $10 discount for pre-order you need to monitor the forums or Heatblur Facebook etc. for the release notice they promised before the pre-order ends, or simply pre-order now and wait for the release (which will be 21st March, latest)

Thank you shagrat sorry I really did not see the information at the beginning at least it's clear Good luck to the developer for the job I will preorder tonight to support

What do they do with their plane?

Its a bye that we preorder it communicates nothing of all except nice trailer and youtube videos for advertising. One moment you guys paid to get the plane out in its state you make a rocket for NASA? the impression that you develop a complete game is GTAVI?

The timetable is exactly the same as when Shagrat explained it to you previously. Until March 21 2019 it is up to them whether they should move it to EA or keep working on it.

No.

Pre-order is generally fine, it's the early access bit that causes controversy because it's much harder to define what you'll be getting and when.

This is a stupid discussion...

#1 Heat blur have made it very clear that they intend to release it before Q1, or by the end of the winter. (This product launches in Early Access during this winter)

#2 What your getting when released is up on Youtube for everyone to watch, there is no confusion as to what you are buying and a TBD of features list/fixes/improvements they plan to implement over time which I have no problem with.

Someone mentioned and compared Razbam to Heat blur on delays LOL, let's clear that one up, IMO have done everything they said they were going to do to the Viggen, yes a few things have to be updated or improved but I have faith they won't forget about it. Again IMO its nearly perfect and can't ask for much more.

... its very simple, if you're not happy or willing to wait ask Heat blur� for a refund !.. if they don't but knowing these guys I'm sure they will, I will be happy to pay you for your key, even though I have a free F-14 coming to me.

This should be the end of the discussion.... just unbelievable� what some of you guys complain about.

The only person I see complaining is you.

Actually, this is just how business and economy work. You've got an idea, try to make up your business plan, go to the bank to get the funds and then you try not to fail. But if you do so, and you're not 100% responsible for your outcome alone, have a good night - if it runs well, you'll eventually get the chance to pay up your debt before actually having reached something for yourself in terms of cash. Not everyone is born with a million dollars on his bank account and this is how it goes for probably at least 98% of the brave ones who try to found a company. Economy without debt is utopia³. I try to live without, and I try hard - it's almost impossible.

 

The other point is that you're getting an unfinished product, but you know that already and in many cases, you pay less in cash, but more in time and they take your feedback to improve things. Basically you're a alpha/beta tester, but something like second level. If you have fun doing that testing and, in case of DCS, want to learn the modules as early as possible, this is a good choice. If you hate life (=have to deal with things that don't work all the time), you better wait until like 5 years after the official release

Maybe a bit off in some minor parts but I think that's quite an interesting analysis on early access - it's an extension on our culture's increasing acceptance of debt and credit, even the concept of money is starting to revolve around it. There is evidence that any GDP growth in the western world is only because of increasing amounts of credit the system is made to bear.

With all credit there is a risk of default, so the investor who grants you the money expects a compensation in return (usually, the interest on the capital and maybe some other benefits). You guys spelled out VERY nicely that there is a benefit in the gaming early access market too, and considering that HB is one of the least risky developers in DCS, the buyers of pre-purchase F-14 should be really happy because they are earning "risk corrected alpha" over the rest of the gaming early access market. In other words the discounts and other benefits far outweigh the associated risks in HB's case!

Anyway if you're the kind of person who wants everything NOW, you're going to have a very rough time with DCS.

With some developers and companies this could be accurate I suppose, but with ED/DCS, with the exception of the Hawk, which wasn't EDs fault IMO, it just hasn't been demonstrably the case IMO. I mean look at the Hornet module. Just check the list of changelogs/updates since it was released on day 1 of early access. There has been an absolute PILE of continual updates, additions, and improvements. ED/DCS/Devs here have been getting better IMO in terms of how rapidly they are pumping this stuff out.

In case of the F-18, ED was taking all the criticism on EA from the community and they went for an overkill in that case, I agree that the pace of progress has been very rapid. I actually wish they hadn't put so many eggs in the same basket and would have worked more on the upcoming modules and getting them out in an orderly fashion. But here we are and the F-18 is going to showcase that the EA model works for ED/DCS and probably the player community's trust in the platform will, at least, be recovered.

Also if ED can work out a sensible solution to the Hawk, they have a chance of showing that there is some kind of insurance even if things go haywire and your "kickstarter moneys" are, in principle, lost. This is in contrast with your regular independent EA/kickstarter project, where there is no single powerful party that has a vested interest in the platform and the public's perception of it.

Maybe a bit off in some minor parts but I think that's quite an interesting analysis on early access - it's an extension on our culture's increasing acceptance of debt and credit, even the concept of money is starting to revolve around it. There is evidence that any GDP growth in the western world is only because of increasing amounts of credit the system is made to bear.

 

With all credit there is a risk of default, so the investor who grants you the money expects a compensation in return (usually, the interest on the capital and maybe some other benefits). You guys spelled out VERY nicely that there is a benefit in the gaming early access market too, and considering that HB is one of the least risky developers in DCS, the buyers of pre-purchase F-14 should be really happy because they are earning "risk corrected alpha" over the rest of the gaming early access market. In other words the discounts and other benefits far outweigh the associated risks in HB's case!

 

Anyway if you're the kind of person who wants everything NOW, you're going to have a very rough time with DCS.

A bank isn't giving you any money until they've looked into your plans to judge the risk; they'll then set an interest rate accordingly to ensure the potential reward makes it worthwhile. They are making an investment.

I think Eldur is right that some companies look at Kickstarter/ early access this way, but we don't have the information or expertise to judge the risk, nor does the reward scale accordingly. We are customers, and shouldn't accept a higher risk than any other consumer product.

*came here looking for some interesting discussion about aircraft tactics, avionics, aerodynamics or history... Left with nothing.

Will current DCS AI allow for proper implementation of the fleet defence mission? Will they be able to sort targets among the flight (quickly!) and prioritize in such a way as to maximize the CVBG's chance of survival?

Hi Cobra.

Are you still considering the option to hide the stick like the Hornet?

We are customers, and shouldn't accept a higher risk than any other consumer product.

And what is your risk exactly with Heatblur�?

We are customers, and shouldn't accept a higher risk than any other consumer product.

Caveat Emptor.

It's the customers task to judge if the risk of purchasing a product in early access is worth it. For some it will be, for others it won't. If you can't/won't take the risk: Wait until the product is OUT of EA and THEN buy it.

Simple, easy and clean. No need to clutter a develeopement-thread with crap like this.

And what is your risk exactly with Heatblur�?

It was a general statement, not directed at Heatblur in particular.

Caveat Emptor.

No, it's a consumer product not a private sale on ebay.

No, it's a consumer product not a private sale on ebay.

Doesn't matter, it still applies.

It's up to YOU to weigh the risks vs the rewards. Early Access is there as an option, not as an instrument to force you to buy. You're told well in advance what you're purchasing, which flaws the product has and which features that are complete. Heatblur isn't forcing you to do anything, whatever you feel that you're forced to do is all in your head.

I'm not saying they forced me to do anything. I'm saying that early access shouldn't carry any extra risk of not receiving a completed product than if I'd bought it already complete.

Again, not referring to Heatblur specifically.

I'm not saying they forced me to do anything. I'm saying that early access shouldn't carry any extra risk of not receiving a completed product than if I'd bought it already complete.

 

Again, not referring to Heatblur specifically.

If you don't pre-order/pre-purchase (as in paying for the product before completion) you have no risk at all...

It shouldn't carry a risk, but it does - you're relying on good faith that it'll ever be finished. Better than getting nothing at all of course.