Military and Aviation News Thread (NO DISCUSSION)

F-15 goes down off Okinawa

F-15 goes down off Okinawa; pilot rescued at sea

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/f-15-goes-down-off-okinawa-pilot-rescued-at-sea-1.223275

Is a SAM an offensive weapon? - Further disturbance at Alan's Snackbar.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-05-28/russia-says-s-300-missile-sale-to-syria-will-stabilize-region

“We won’t cancel this contract,” Ryabkov told reporters today in Moscow. “We understand the concerns and the signals that are being sent to us from different capitals. We see that many of our partners are worried about this, but we have no reasons to reconsider our position.”

 

The S-300 missiles with a range of 200-300 kilometers (186 miles) are a threat to Israel and can reach aircraft over Ben Gurion airport, Yuval Steinitz, Israeli Minister of International Relations, told reporters today. That makes them “not just defensive weapons, but offensive,” he said, calling the Russian move “terribly wrong.”

 

The exchanges came hours after the European Union authorized arms sales to the Syrian opposition. While Britain and France, the prime movers behind the decision, said there would be no immediate shipments to rebels, both countries said the move was intended to narrow the options for Assad, who has clung to power during two years of civil war that has cost 80,000 Syrian lives.

 

Ryabkov accused the EU of “pouring oil on the flames of the conflict.” The Russian minister declined to say what stage the S-300 deliveries have reached, but Israel’s Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon said the systems have not yet been shipped. “If, by some misfortune, they arrive in Syria, we will know what to do,” he told reporters today.

 

‘Destabilizing’ Sale

The S-300, first deployed by the Soviet Union in late 1970s, would be “destabilizing” for Israel’s security, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said on May 9 in Rome.

 

Ruslan Pukhov, head of the Center of Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow, questioned the military impact of the weapons.

 

“This is more about politics than real arms supply,” he said by phone. “The S-300 in the Syrian case is an attract-fire-to-yourself kind of weapon. Imagine what will happen if they shoot down an Israeli plane? Assad needs more soldiers and light weapons and not anti-aircraft systems.”

 

The sale “is a massive game-changer,” Anthony Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and international Studies in Washington, said in an e-mail. “It virtually ensures that the U.S.-Russian talks will be meaningless, sends warning signals about similar arms transfer to Iran, can drag Israel into the Syrian fighting, and would sharply alter U.S. and allied ‘no fly’ capabilities if the Syrians can quickly absorb the system.”

 

Peace Talks

The EU decision had harmed the prospects of success for an international peace conference and is a “risky step,” Ryabkov said. Kerry and Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov met in Paris on May 27 to discuss the conference. The U.S. and Russia are “deeply committed” to making the peace conference work, Kerry said after the meeting.

 

“The chances for success are there,” Lavrov said. “We will do everything in our power to use those chances to make them realized.”

 

The U.S. has also complained about Russian supplies of anti-ship missiles to Assad.

 

Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, told Congress last month that Russia was supplying Syria with a supersonic anti-ship cruise missile called the Yakhont, a weapon with a range of 300 kilometers that he said poses “a major threat to naval operations, particularly in the eastern Mediterranean.”

 

Air Strikes

Israel has repeatedly warned Syria this year that it will act to prevent any shipments of advanced arms to Lebanon’s Hezbollah’s militia. Israeli officials have declined to say whether it was responsible for three air strikes against Syrian targets, most recently this month.

 

President Vladimir Putin warned against steps that might worsen the Syrian conflict at a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Sochi, Russia, on May 14. The S-300 issue was discussed at the meeting, according to Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.

 

Three Lebanese soldiers were killed by unidentified gunmen in a drive-by shooting at a checkpoint near the Syrian border today, raising concerns that the civil war is spreading.

 

The unidentified gunmen escaped after opening fire from a car on an army roadblock in Arsal in the northeast, the official Lebanese National News Agency reported.

 

@marcos )) lol... whats the point.. S-300 is a defensive weapon, as long as Israel doesn't send jets to bomb Syria Israel will be perfectly safe.. or do the Israelis prefer Russia sends Iskander missiles instead?

what really LOL-ed me the veil threat of Israeli general as to warn the Russians that we Know what to do if Russia sends the systems)) Was he trying to imply they might kill the russian sailors in international waters like turkish civilians carying medical supplies to Gaza? My god, has Israel actually threatened Russia?)) talk about biting more than you can chew) ..

Soon Netanyahoo told all generals to shut up and not talk..for making things worse than they are..

after all, Russia can't take such threats lightly..

Kaktus29, I wont go into politics here, but a SAM launcher can very well be used offensively if its range goes into the airspace of neighbour countries.

@marcos

 

what really LOL-ed me the veil threat of Israeli general as to warn the Russians that we Know what to do if Russia sends the systems)) Was he trying to imply they might kill the russian sailors in international waters like turkish civilians carying medical supplies to Gaza? My god, has Israel actually threatened Russia?)) talk about biting more than you can chew) ..

I just have to reply to this.

Here's the quote by Moshe Ya’alon, Israel’s Defense Minister :“If, by some misfortune, they arrive in Syria, we will know what to do,”

That is not a threat to russia, or russian lives. When "they", (the missiles), are in the hands of the syrians (ie "in syria"), they'll take some sort of action. Nothing to do with killing russian sailors in international waters. Come on. This is a serious situation.

@mili.. first of all, they,israeli didn't have problems killing civilians in international waters transporting medicine and food, ..this is not politics just facts.. and this "threat" was meant for Russia not Syria.. Once system is deployed Israel knows they missed the chance to get an "easy kill" which they are gunning for always..

The only easy kill is by attacking the transport ship in international waters and murdering sailors on it..

Again, this system is not a threat to Israel, it does prevent Israel superiority in bombing Syria.. is that really a DANGER to Israel? i don't think so.. its like, i want to have total dominance when it comes to slapping you, so i am bothered by the fact you don't have your hands tied up..

Syria is not able to do offensive action towards ISrael, so this is all Israel going war-mode for some reason and yes, THREATENING even Russia.. i just wonder who else will they threaten next.. Great China with 1.3 billion population..

its funny man...its funny .. i do hope US military are signalling Israelis not to push their luck.. as they did with Georgia gambit.. or should i say gamble...

@ich .. yes, i agree, like the US Patriot missiles in Turkey-Syria border, and Jordan-Syria border and Israeli-Syria border (israel put iron dome and some other systems) .. please, no politics here..and double standards is the wh*re of politics..

Ok, you're 100% correct.

Israel is not threatening Russia. Don't be an idiot.

I don't want to go into politics as I don't have nor want to express an opinion on the matter, it is a simple question of military strategy.

S-300 deployed in Syria would prevent Israel from conducting raids against arms transfers between Syria and the Hezbollah, and when one assumes Israel's point of view, that is a threat.

S-300 deployed in Syria would prevent Israel from conducting raids against arms transfers between Syria and the Hezbollah

I'm interested to see just how this action actually won't prevent Israel from conducting it's raids. I would hazard a guess that shortly after the S-300 sites are set up, that the Israeli's will make sure that those sites are no longer operating according to origional manufacturer specifications.

Time will tell though.

I'm interested to see just how this action actually won't prevent Israel from conducting it's raids. I would hazard a guess that shortly after the S-300 sites are set up, that the Israeli's will make sure that those sites are no longer operating according to origional manufacturer specifications.

 

 

Time will tell though.

Depends on who's operating them and how well trained they are. Also depends on the radar units deployed and the surrounding air defences. A well set up S-300 will be near impossible for a non-stealth aircraft to take down without losses but there's nothing to say it will be well setup.

@marcos.. i agree with your analysis.. also, its laughable when one tries to portray Israel as a victim here.. Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization and hasn't attacked Israel, and hasn't killed israelis for a long time, they are loyal to the idea that they will not bow down to israel..if this is what stands today for being a terrorist then i am a terrorist as well... while at the same time real terrorist-like nusra front in syria which contains elements of wahabi-salafist jihadist nutcases who have cut heads and eaten organs from PoWs.. are what? friends of israel?)) its lunatic statements when one tries to apologise the "rebels" while claiming Assad threatens israel..

IF there are decoys it will be hard to destroy S-300 ..you can put many fake S-300 across Syria and make sure lots of ammo and lots of aircraft exposure is done before you get to the real S-300 .. plus S-300 is not suited to protect syria from one-time israeli raids where jets fire missiles while still in lebanon or israeli airspace..this system is for IF NATO assaults and planes are doing CAS for the terrorists.. than its much easier to down 40 planes in 1 minutes..pack up the radar and change location.rinse and repeat and the whole CAS campaign grinds to a halt..

S-300 will not be used to hunt cruise missiles ..to wasteful for that..

about pre-emptive nazi thinking..its dangerous.. i can claim i am threatened by you, so i wanna pre-emptively punch you in the face.. see? it gets ugly real fast..

So the illegal (under international law) doctrine of the pre-emptive strike has become so internalised that preventing a country from illegally bombing your country has now come to be seen as a threat to that country ?

It must be to them as Moshe Ya'alon (Israel Defence Minister) declared that the deployment of S-300 is a clear threat to Israel.

And remember I'm not expressing my opinions here, I think you missed the "when one assumes Israel point of view" part in my original reply.

The whole Hezbollah excuse may be just what it is, an excuse.

But it is not the place here to discuss it anyway.

I agree with your assessment of the S-300 and the variables involved in it's procurement marcos, but I think your forgetting that Israel has proven time and again that they have some pretty good ground based intelligence on it's neighbors. I also wouldn't throw out the idea that the U.S. could supply Satellite and other types of intel on the S-300's as well to aid in taking them out.

Like I said, time will tell. If the S-300's do get destroyed what will be the excuse for their lack of performance, I wonder.

@invader.. there are tons of excuses which are REAL why S-300 would get destroyed if that is to happen.. there is a ground war happening making moving of SAM hard.. there is huge strain put on army making SAM operations difficult, there is number superiority on Israel side, there is lack of any AIR force on the part of Syria to make the s-300 work as intended.. many many things.. if, and that is a big IF, s-300 gets destroyed it wouldn't prove anything.. most likely IF Israel decides to do kamikazi it will be when they get intel where the system is, and then attack it with 100 planes, 200 drones, jammers, awacs, tomahawks ))) lol.. and then they will say, you see, s300 is nothing))

@kaktus, I think you have a good assessment there, it doesn't mean the S-300 system is a failure if it's destroyed, but to those less familiar with how these systems work it can be a PR nightmare for the companies involved with making these systems.

I am thinking the countdown timer for Israel to strike has already started.

http://www.debka.com/article/23002/Israeli-intelligence-denies-first-Russian-S-300s-arrive-in-Syria---contrary-to-Assad%E2%80%99s-claim-

Senior Israeli intelligence sources emphasized to debkafile Thursday May 30 that Syria had still not received the first consignment of Russian S-300 anti-missile batteries – contrary to Syrian President Bashar Assad’s claim.

Directly taunting Israel, Syrian president Bashar Assad said in an interview prerecorded for broadcast Thursday night, May 30, that the first batch of Russian S-300 anti-air missiles has arrived in Syria and a second consignment was on the way. The broadcast was scheduled to air simultaneously over Hizballah’s Al Manar and Syrian state television channels.

 

The Syrian ruler was responding to the quote from Israel’s National Security Adviser Yakov Amidror that the S-300 batteries have not been delivered yet and when they are, Israel will destroy them before they are operational.

Wednesday, May 29, debkafile reported the landing at Latakia airport of a large Russian transport carrying 60 tons of unidentified freight. Labeled by Moscow “humanitarian aid,” it may in fact have contained the first S-300 delivery to which Assad referred.

Continuing in the same vein, Assad said that not only would the Syrian army react to any further Israeli attacks, he “would not stand in the way of Syrian groups that want to fight for the liberation of the Golan.”

debkafile reported earlier Thursday.

 

Fresh Hizballah forces entered Syria early Thursday, May 30, hours after the United States called the presence of the Hizballah fighters from Lebanon in Syria “unacceptable” and “dangerous” and demanded their immediate withdrawal. Already fighting on three fronts – Damascus, Homs and al Qusayr - debkafile’s military sources report that the new increment is assigned a fourth. Iran’s Lebanese proxies will be heading south to take on the rebel stronghold of Deraa, capital of the Huran, where thet will be fighting within 30 kilometers of Israel’s Golan border.

Lookout posts report the incoming Hizballah units organizing their equipment and getting set to move.

The threats traded by Russia, Syria, Hizballah with Israel have reached a new pitch of stridency.

Israel’s National Secuirty Adviser Yakov Amidror was quoted Wednesday night as warning that if the Russian S-300 anti-air missiles are delivered to Syria, Israel will strike them and prevent their deployment for operational use.

 

Former Defense Minister Moshe Arens voiced his certainty that the Russians are aware Israel is capable of destroying the batteries.

debkafile’s military sources add: Moscow has made a point of stressing that the S-300s for Syria will arrive accompanied by Russian officers and advisers, in the belief that Israel will think twice before tangling with Moscow by attacking the missiles still in their crates and risking harm to Russian personnel. This eventuality came up in the tough conversation Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu had with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Sochi on May 14.

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem has meanwhile pitched in to warn that another Israeli strike against Syria would elicit an immediate Syrian response. He spoke to the Hizballah TV station Al Mayadin Wednesday night. In answer to a question, he said the Syrian response would be proportional to the Israeli attack.

 

In Helsinki, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reacted harshly to the European Union’s decision – spearheaded by Britain and France – to lift its arms embargo on the Syrian rebels: He made it clear that this decision had untied Moscow’s hands for supplying Bashar Assad with weapons banned by international treaties.

 

“Every decision has two sides. If one side lifts its restrictions, then the other side may no longer feel compelled to keep its previously adopted obligations,” Shoigu said Wednesday.

 

A special interview with President Assad is scheduled for simultaneous broadcast Thursday night by Hizballah’s Al-Manar and Syrian state television channels.

Going by the info above in the article, I would suspect that Israel will wait until the Russian techs are away from the system or it's handed over to the Syrian military, but before the S-300 is able to go online and active to take them out.

And who says you need to risk aircraft to do the job? Depending on where the systems are deployed and the ranges between the two countries, Israel could use MLRS or other artillery against them.

How many systems are going to be in operation? A single S-300 system isn't going to be anything other than a speed bump. It's dangerous, but it's not exactly over-whelming defense.

@gg .. 4 systems.. 200 missiles i think.. spread across Syria.. supported by BUK, Pechora, Pantsir .. not a speed bump ..

but the hardest thing will be determining when Russians have LEFT the system and Syrians are now operating it.. i can't see what kind of intelligence one needs to determine this successfully.. unless one has a cell phone number of the Russian technician running the system i think possibility of hitting the system before Russians leave is big.. meaning after Israel launches attack and lets say kills 40 Russians, a Russian Tu-160 could easily fly through Iran-Iraq-and drop 200 cruise missiles and kill 500 israeli soldiers.. whats next? more retaliation? WIll US be okei with world ending because a spoiled brat can't live with itself knowing they don't have free skies in Syria to bomb and abuse at their will? ..

I really hope for world peace US has the guts and balls to stand to Israel and tell them to stand the H down.. or they might just as well become Georgia 2.0.. but with more radiation released in the worlds atmosphere

Syria gets first batch of Russian S-300 missiles

Syria gets first batch of Russian S-300 missiles

If tasked to operate it I would do that miles away from it :music_whistling:

It's a speed bump ... and to understand why it's a speed-bump you have to understand what a real SAM corridor looks like: Taking an example from US air defense, you will find 4-8 batteries of PATRIOT or PATRIOT + HAWK defending a single corridor (right now, it's only PATRIOT). The same applies to S-300. If they're spread out over Syria, they're basically speed-bump point-defense.

Having the medium range missiles like BUK supporting them completes the system, but the catch is, if you want to stop a serious attack, you need a dense corridor. Naturally, you match this to the threat - so, the question is, how big of a threat do you think Israeli jets are?

And just to make things more interesting, the US sold F-16 Block 60's to the UAE or Saudi, I forget which, which jammers capable of defending those jets against the S-300.

Traditionally, the Israelis have been really good at dealing with SAMs ... just a couple of things to think about.

I'm not making a point of the S-300 not being able to do anything at all, but rather, can those installations, the complete defensive package, actually defend whatever they're defending from a determined Israeli attack? (And what is it that Israel wants to attack, if anything?)

By the way, you said 'no politics' before. So I'm not just going to suggest, but I'll outright warn you not to do it again ... emphasis in quote mine so you know what I'm referring to.

@gg .. 4 systems.. 200 missiles i think.. spread across Syria.. supported by BUK, Pechora, Pantsir .. not a speed bump ..

 

but the hardest thing will be determining when Russians have LEFT the system and Syrians are now operating it.. i can't see what kind of intelligence one needs to determine this successfully.. unless one has a cell phone number of the Russian technician running the system i think possibility of hitting the system before Russians leave is big.. meaning after Israel launches attack and lets say kills 40 Russians, a Russian Tu-160 could easily fly through Iran-Iraq-and drop 200 cruise missiles and kill 500 israeli soldiers.. whats next? more retaliation? WIll US be okei with world ending because a spoiled brat can't live with itself knowing they don't have free skies in Syria to bomb and abuse at their will? ..

 

I really hope for world peace US has the guts and balls to stand to Israel and tell them to stand the H down.. or they might just as well become Georgia 2.0.. but with more radiation released in the worlds atmosphere

fair enough..

okei.. so dense corridor vs. loose corridor... thats not the point.. who cares about corridors or even targets to bomb.. its about psychology.. its about being able to waltz in enemy air space and basically loiter without worries.. this is what israel wants and this is what normally Syria doesn't want-as any other nation would obviously..

S-300 just makes it much more possible that any such "loiter" doesn't exist.. even previous israeli bombings were much less loiter than they would like because of SAMs.. its basically hit-and-run tactics.. fly to the border without crossing it, throw bunch of guide ammo and break low to hide from possible retaliation.. thats far from actually being in enemy air space doing any worthwhile tactical operation not mentioning CAS operation that is even more important in all-out war..

about Israeli success in dealing with systems.. i don't know if that hold water.. i know of israeli 30 planes lost when they tried to knock of 1 single KUB system in egypt.. about those sams lost in syria in 80's.. many agree syrians did terrible mistakes like having sam's in valleys, not deploying decoys, not moving actually preferring the sam's be immobilized than having them mobilized, and of course the last fun part ALWAYS have radar ON.. it was like they were trying to piss off the russians and their lectures they receive on proper sam deployment.. Vietnamese learned better even though their education level was lower than Syrians ..

So, again, S-300 role is already accomplished.. its psychological.. can it be destroyed?of course, thats not the point, but there will be losses, and this is what Israel cannot have.. imagine seeing 6 planes shot down, 4 pilots captured, 2 dead.. its a no-go..

and just like that further violation of syrian air space is prevented and stability in region is increased.. i say this is good news for every person living and intent with staying alive..

Stability is actually decreased, and things are escalated. Imagine instead of Isreali planes shot down it's dead Russians delivering missiles that got caught in the middle of this. The Israeli's already warned repeatedly they WILL deal with the S-300's. If Russia decides to stand by their decision to deliver them to Syria after such warnings then they take their chances.

The Israeli's tend to do what they say they are going to do, usually within days of a statement. Like other's have said, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a Syrian S-300 or any other Syrian SAM unit in the coming days.

fair enough..

 

okei.. so dense corridor vs. loose corridor... thats not the point.. who cares about corridors or even targets to bomb.. its about psychology.. its about being able to waltz in enemy air space and basically loiter without worries.. this is what israel wants and this is what normally Syria doesn't want-as any other nation would obviously..

 

S-300 just makes it much more possible that any such "loiter" doesn't exist.. even previous israeli bombings were much less loiter than they would like because of SAMs.. its basically hit-and-run tactics.. fly to the border without crossing it, throw bunch of guide ammo and break low to hide from possible retaliation.. thats far from actually being in enemy air space doing any worthwhile tactical operation not mentioning CAS operation that is even more important in all-out war..

 

about Israeli success in dealing with systems.. i don't know if that hold water.. i know of israeli 30 planes lost when they tried to knock of 1 single KUB system in egypt.. about those sams lost in syria in 80's.. many agree syrians did terrible mistakes like having sam's in valleys, not deploying decoys, not moving actually preferring the sam's be immobilized than having them mobilized, and of course the last fun part ALWAYS have radar ON.. it was like they were trying to piss off the russians and their lectures they receive on proper sam deployment.. Vietnamese learned better even though their education level was lower than Syrians ..

 

So, again, S-300 role is already accomplished.. its psychological.. can it be destroyed?of course, thats not the point, but there will be losses, and this is what Israel cannot have.. imagine seeing 6 planes shot down, 4 pilots captured, 2 dead.. its a no-go..

 

and just like that further violation of syrian air space is prevented and stability in region is increased.. i say this is good news for every person living and intent with staying alive..

Why would Israel want to stay above Syrian airspace for a longer time? The SAM-systems is not the only problem, since the syrian-regime also have fighters.

No one talks about any NFZ or strikes to support the FSA. Israels problem is Hezbollah and the S-300 systems which may close down the airspace over Lebanon and northern Israel. By sending in heavy strategic arms to the region is not stabilising by the facts I just stated.

The FSA will have to fight alone for a long time ahead - but when the conflict spreads to Lebanon, Israel and Turkey - that´s when we start talking pre-emptive strikes to secure the own integrity.