Cold War 1947 - 1991

On 2/10/2021 at 2:32 PM, Davey said:

Please don't misunderstand, I'm only talking about making it a more even playing field, not realism. I wanted to share my opinion that I think because of the missiles currently available (just referring to the R60s) that it's a lot more difficult to be an F-5 pilot fighting against Fishbeds, than vice versa.

Really the AIM 9P and the 24J on the Viggen are basically on par with the R60. R60 is slightly more manuverable (but just barely) 9p and 24J keep their steam longer then the R60, and hit harder (A-10s and Harriers have about a 50% chance of eating a R60 and continue flying and fighting) with uncageing in the viggen and F-5 you don't need to worry about keeping  your nose as precisely on targert as you need for the almost 1.5 seconds with the R60 in the 21. Both missles become useless once a knife fight starts between an F-5 and 21  as long as either oppenent keep it close and keep pulling his nose around.

 I'd say about 1 in 10 missle shots i take with a R60 would hit rather then miss if I had fired a 9p or 24J in the same parameters vs a manuvering target. But i'd say the 24J and AIM 9P would hit vs a retreating target at full speed from a longer range then the R60, and you have more flexibility with nose position. If you are slow and your nose is wobbling around with the F-5 and Viggen vs the MiG 21

I feel the plane sets balance each other out Nicely right noe. Viggen can take up to 6 24Js (granted most missions only offer 36 of the missiles in total) the MiG 21 is slightly better then the F-5 in the air to air role and F-5 is slightly better then the MiG in the air to ground role.

1 hour ago, CrazyGman said:

... Also they will be visible as larger specs against the sky at about 40km

What?! I've never noticed F-14A's appearing as larger specs at such a far distance! Is it your hardware maybe or some game options you have? Specs appear to me all the same, be it ground units, helicopters, airplanes. Even B-52's are just about the same. I'm gonna have to monitor that next time I'm flying. Maybe I just never cared to notice that.

53 minutes ago, Alpenwolf said:

 

What?! I've never noticed F-14A's appearing as larger specs at such a far distance! Is it your hardware maybe or some game options you have? Specs appear to me all the same, be it ground units, helicopters, airplanes. Even B-52's are just about the same. I'm gonna have to monitor that next time I'm flying. Maybe I just never cared to notice that.

I mean it's really subtle and i might be exacgerating a bit with the distance (certainly by 20km you can see a difference) viggens F-5 harriers and choppers you can't dustinguish though.

I run max almost everything except heatblur and anti aliiasing witch is msaa at 2x 

1440p screen

2 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

F-5 is slightly better then the MiG in the air to ground role.

What is this assumption based on?

14 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

What is this assumption based on?

Better visibility in cockpit.

Engine doesn't flame out from negative or between 0-1 G like the MiG 21.

Rocket pod is better then MiG S5 rockets. Bombs are comparible.

Better stability for attack runs

Better RWR.

Can carry decent amount of fuel, air to ground and air to air weapons at the same time.

MiG 21 does have Grom missle and S24 rockets, but the Grom is very situational. And the S 24 rockets are just a one shot wonder. 

It's not a big difference just like air to air between the MiG and F-5 isn't huge.

Some good points except for 

43 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Can carry decent amount of fuel, air to ground and air to air weapons at the same time.

 

F-5E and MiG-21 are basically equal here (maybe a few minutes less flight time for the MiG) and the MiG-21 can always carry A2G ordinance and up to four AAMs at the same time (with the drag penalty).

You did not take into account that the DCS MiG-21 has (unrealistic) CCIP. You'll hit where you point the pipper. In the F-5E it's checking the tables, pre-planning release altitude, considering target elevation, release speed, release angle, wind factor, depression. And then you really have to nail these things in the attack run under fire. If you hit something, you are really good. Not so much with the MiG-21. I think this is the most significant factor that makes the Mig the better A2G platform in DCS, and this is why almost no F-5 pilot on this server ever carries A2G ordinance, and if they do, they usually don't hit anything.

1 hour ago, Pilot Ike said:

Some good points except for 

 

F-5E and MiG-21 are basically equal here (maybe a few minutes less flight time for the MiG) and the MiG-21 can always carry A2G ordinance and up to four AAMs at the same time (with the drag penalty).

 

You did not take into account that the DCS MiG-21 has (unrealistic) CCIP. You'll hit where you point the pipper. In the F-5E it's checking the tables, pre-planning release altitude, considering target elevation, release speed, release angle, wind factor, depression. And then you really have to nail these things in the attack run under fire. If you hit something, you are really good. Not so much with the MiG-21. I think this is the most significant factor that makes the Mig the better A2G platform in DCS, and this is why almost no F-5 pilot on this server ever carries A2G ordinance, and if they do, they usually don't hit anything.

 

Seriously if your putting the double r60 launchers on your 3 and 4 station your really messing up the flight characteristics of the plane and IMO lossing any advantage you think your getting by taking them. Dual R60 on the 1-2 with S-24s on the 3-4 is....better.... but again you'll be heavy and likely overweight if you don't reduce fuel 

I don't know about you but i most definely don't hit where the pipper is pointed the vast majority of the time if my parameters are off during my run, but i have the realistic asp sight feature turned on so maybe that accounts for it. There are also about as many MiG 21 pilots doing air to ground as F-5 pilots, but then some maps have more F-5 slots available then MiG 21s and instead there are open slots for MiG 19 to "balance" it.

Generally air superiority, and matches are  won by the team with the most people on SRS that are communcating with each other and GCI support. I don' feel the way the maps are currently set up that one side has an overt advantage over the other with the current weapons allowed

2 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

I mean it's really subtle and i might be exacgerating a bit with the distance (certainly by 20km you can see a difference) viggens F-5 harriers and choppers you can't dustinguish though.

 

I run max almost everything except heatblur and anti aliiasing witch is msaa at 2x 

1440p screen

 

 

I've setup a quick mission to test various spotting distances with F14s placed 10km, 20km & 40km.

At the default zoom level in the Mig21 cockpit, running 3440x1440 with MSAA 2x, The F14 straight ahead of me at just under 40km is simply not rendered. I have to use max zoom for the pixel to appear. Even worse, the two F14s placed at 20km and 10km are visible ONLY when I am perfectly stationary & still but as soon as I move my head in the cockpit (I have a poor man's TrackIR) the specs disappear out of existence.

Finally, the F14 placed at 10km actually becomes more difficult to spot as it get closer since the game switches to the mesh & depending on the aspect, the plane might be less than 1 pixel tall & as a result becomes virtually invisible at certain angles.

No wonder I can't spot anything unless there are trails or we are in a circle fight. Hopefully there will be a fix for this at some point in the future alongside all of the nice clouds and other visual improvements in the works.

[EDIT] Ran some more tests & it appears my 'Visible Range' setting was set to Medium which seemingly just stops rendering the specs past a certain distance/FOV. I increased it to 'Ultra' and now all three dots appear regardless of the zoom level ; I also tried running in 2560x1080 and the dots are so much easier to see. I do like the sharpness of 1440p but I might have to make this sacrifice to have a slightly better chance at surviving in PvP.

1 hour ago, CrazyGman said:

...

Generally air superiority, and matches are  won by the team with the most people on SRS that are communcating with each other and GCI support. I don' feel the way the maps are currently set up that one side has an overt advantage over the other with the current weapons allowed

 

Exactly!

And I always try to encourage people to use SRS rather than pointing out "significant" advantages and disadvantages of the aircraft available because they're not that significant.

8 hours ago, Althar93 said:

 

I've setup a quick mission to test various spotting distances with F14s placed 10km, 20km & 40km.

 

At the default zoom level in the Mig21 cockpit, running 3440x1440 with MSAA 2x, The F14 straight ahead of me at just under 40km is simply not rendered. I have to use max zoom for the pixel to appear. Even worse, the two F14s placed at 20km and 10km are visible ONLY when I am perfectly stationary & still but as soon as I move my head in the cockpit (I have a poor man's TrackIR) the specs disappear out of existence.

 

Finally, the F14 placed at 10km actually becomes more difficult to spot as it get closer since the game switches to the mesh & depending on the aspect, the plane might be less than 1 pixel tall & as a result becomes virtually invisible at certain angles.

 

No wonder I can't spot anything unless there are trails or we are in a circle fight. Hopefully there will be a fix for this at some point in the future alongside all of the nice clouds and other visual improvements in the works.

 

[EDIT] Ran some more tests & it appears my 'Visible Range' setting was set to Medium which seemingly just stops rendering the specs past a certain distance/FOV. I increased it to 'Ultra' and now all three dots appear regardless of the zoom level ; I also tried running in 2560x1080 and the dots are so much easier to see. I do like the sharpness of 1440p but I might have to make this sacrifice to have a slightly better chance at surviving in PvP.

 

AHHH for me you can start to see subtle differences at around 30ish km but it's still too iffy, at 20km you can see a distinct size difference and the plume from the F-14s engine, in these pictures the targets are at about 19.8km away this one is head on. at 1440p resolutions and ultra distances

3 hours ago, Althar93 said:

 

I've setup a quick mission to test various spotting distances with F14s placed 10km, 20km & 40km.

 

At the default zoom level in the Mig21 cockpit, running 3440x1440 with MSAA 2x, The F14 straight ahead of me at just under 40km is simply not rendered. I have to use max zoom for the pixel to appear. Even worse, the two F14s placed at 20km and 10km are visible ONLY when I am perfectly stationary & still but as soon as I move my head in the cockpit (I have a poor man's TrackIR) the specs disappear out of existence.

 

Finally, the F14 placed at 10km actually becomes more difficult to spot as it get closer since the game switches to the mesh & depending on the aspect, the plane might be less than 1 pixel tall & as a result becomes virtually invisible at certain angles.

 

No wonder I can't spot anything unless there are trails or we are in a circle fight. Hopefully there will be a fix for this at some point in the future alongside all of the nice clouds and other visual improvements in the works.

 

[EDIT] Ran some more tests & it appears my 'Visible Range' setting was set to Medium which seemingly just stops rendering the specs past a certain distance/FOV. I increased it to 'Ultra' and now all three dots appear regardless of the zoom level ; I also tried running in 2560x1080 and the dots are so much easier to see. I do like the sharpness of 1440p but I might have to make this sacrifice to have a slightly better chance at surviving in PvP.

 

and here is the side on profile of the F-14 and F-5 at 20km again make sure to zoom it full scree so the full 1440p resolution shows through.

Here is a side profile of them at 40km, they are pretty much indistinguishable though you can't really tell in the picture but the F-14 is just a little bit of a darker dot. remember to expand the picture full screen or you won't be able to see it.

Here are my settings in DCS using track IR and 1440p monitor at 150hz

8 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

And I always try to encourage people to use SRS rather than pointing out "significant" advantages and disadvantages of the aircraft available because they're not that significant.

The differences between AH-64D and Ka-50 are also "not that significant" and better teamwork could marginalize the Apache, yet there you seem to feel different.

5 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

Here is a side profile of them at 40km, they are pretty much indistinguishable though you can't really tell in the picture but the F-14 is just a little bit of a darker dot. remember to expand the picture full screen or you won't be able to see it.

 

Here are my settings in DCS using track IR and 1440p monitor at 150hz

I definitely wasn't getting anything near as good as you with my previous settings - at least you can see the specs whereas I simply couldn't . I've been playing PvE/instant missions all of yesterday evening with the view distance pushed all the way (from medium to ultra which seemed to be the main culprit) in the option & running at 1080p instead of 1440p (it isn't so bad with MSAAx2 and the specs are far easier to spot) & it made a night and day difference, I could actually see my targets & my SA was so much better as a result.

I don't expect this will turn me into an ace pilot overnight but I'm sure my next time on the Cold War server will be slightly less of an exercise in frustration.

Helicopters Tournament 13

All UH-1's are taken. Other slots are still available.

5 hours ago, Pilot Ike said:

 

The differences between AH-64D and Ka-50 are also "not that significant" and better teamwork could marginalize the Apache, yet there you seem to feel different.

 

Your kidding right?

Radar for finding ground targets.

Much better feild of view

fire missles behind cover fired with radar guided Hellfires

Regular laser guided hellfires that hit from above so line of sight in crowded urban areas is not much of a issue

Much better sensors for aquiring targets. Plus AI co-pilot/gunner to help find tagerts and engage targets

Not to mention better countermeasures and protection systems.

Even if you got rid of the radar and limited the type of hellfires to just laser guided. The reduced workload in the Apache and 

it's vastly better situatuational awarness, sensors, and protection systems put it just too much above. If black shark 3 wasn't canceled and was allowed (which honestly i don't think it should) then maybe an apache D without radar (if that was an option) i'm ok with the Kiowa as it can't clear a farp in one go but the apache is like bringing an A-10C tank killer 2, (only better) into the server.

2 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

Your kidding right?

 

Of course I am exaggerating a little, but I couldn't resist to see the outcry it would cause amongst some people here who hate to see their way of thinking and discussing turned against them.

Their point in regards to helicopters is this:

It's totally ok to have the (non-historical) Ka-50 battle against Gazelles and Hueys, in that case team Blue simply needs to coordinate better via SRS and everything should be fine - if their tanks are obliterated by Ka-50s, it's all their fault, they didn't coordinate properly, and besides, why are they not up to a little challenge?

Now look what happens if you write this:

It's totally ok to have the (non-historical) AH-64D battle against Mi-8, Mi-24 and Ka-50s, in that case team Red simply needs to coordinate better via SRS and everything should be fine - if their tanks are obliterated by AH-64Ds, it's all their fault, they didn't coordinate properly, and besides, why are they not up to a little challenge?

Hate speech coming in.

BTW, this little conversation started because you wrote the F-5E was a better ground pounder than the MiG-21. I begged to differ and gave reasons for my different view. Nothing more did I write, no "this is unfair" or anything. Look at the reactions I got for that. It seems to be a very personal issue for some people here - if you write anything that has a slightest notion against team Red and their equipment, prepare for some drastic examples of people acting on the internet.

48 minutes ago, Pilot Ike said:

It's totally ok to have the (non-historical) Ka-50 battle against Gazelles and Hueys, in that case team Blue simply needs to coordinate better via SRS and everything should be fine - if their tanks are obliterated by Ka-50s, it's all their fault, they didn't coordinate properly, and besides, why are they not up to a little challenge?

 

 

 

 

Ok. so for ground attack Red has the Ka-50, SU-25 and SU-25T

Blue has ASJ-37 Viggen (a bit of a strech for cold war, Harrier(also a stretch), A-10A

And Gazelle.

When the Kiowa and Hind P come out they will be different but the capabilities of each won't outweigh dramarically what one has over the other.

These plane sets are all close enough in ability as a whole to balance it out roughly

If you bring the Apache D into the mix, what do you add to Red or take away from blue to even the capabilities? Because 1 AH-64 is easily going to do the work of 2 ka-50s and be much more harder to kill.

We can make for the case of aurgument that the F-5 and MiG 21BiS are pretty much equal (and i stand by my original aurgument that the F-5 is better at ground punding by a hair and just a little worse at air to air by a hair)

And the L-39 and C-101 are also roughly equivalent.

42 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

If you bring the Apache D into the mix, what do you add to Red or take away from blue to even the capabilities? Because 1 AH-64 is easily going to do the work of 2 ka-50s and be much more harder to kill.

Maybe, maybe not. At prime time hordes of fighters dominate this server and can make every chopper pilot's life miserable. We may see, if Alpenwolf really adds the AH-64D in a test phase. His last statement could be interpreted like he's refraining from that initial idea. 

Look, I'm actually not arguing for the AH-64D on this server. As I've written above I could very well live without the AH-64D on the server - if the Ka-50 goes.

Let's get to the point of my argument: When the Hind is available and team Red finally has a Cold War era attack helicopter (somewhat comparable to the Gazelle in terms of capabilities -> SACLOS ATGM), it is still intended to keep the Ka-50 in, as Alpenwolf announced! Limited numbers he said, but it's planned to be there. So if you bring the Ka-50 into the mix, what do you add to Blue or take away from Red to even the capabilities? Because 1 Ka-50 is easily going to do the work of 2 Gazelles.

You probably haven't read the hundreds of pages of this thread (no offense!), this is an older discussion, but let me just repeat what I said here before: I'm ok with the Ka-50 being in the game now, as team Red doesn't have any attack helicopter as of today. When the Hind is there though, what reason is there to keep the Ka-50?

1 hour ago, Pilot Ike said:

 

You probably haven't read the hundreds of pages of this thread (no offense!), this is an older discussion, but let me just repeat what I said here before: I'm ok with the Ka-50 being in the game now, as team Red doesn't have any attack helicopter as of today. When the Hind is there though, what reason is there to keep the Ka-50?

Honestly, not a whole lot. Espessially if we pull harriers from tank heavy missions or until we get something like a AH-1W.

However I can see the point that it has been availible on maps for a long long period of time. Pulling it completely right off the hop when the hind becomes availible is going to be jarring to those that fly it, and it's going to take some time to see how the new dynamic works with the Hind P and Kiowa in the mix.

I'm fine with having a limited number in a few missions just like the F-14B and MiG 29A. The KA 50 just skims past the 1991 end date of the server, but it's tech is definetly from the 80s. If an AH-64A was in the mix i wouldn't have an issue, but the D though developed in the early 90s I feel is just pushing the limit a hair too much. 

On 2/15/2021 at 2:57 PM, rossmum said:

I would be absolutely behind this... if anything blue had could fire earlier (like, 9D/E) Sidewinders. If you take away the R-60 you then just flip the advantage the other way, because the AIM-9P is a vastly superior missile to the R-13M1 and the ability for the MiG to carry four is more of an idiot trap than an advantage. The R-60 definitely makes shots other missiles won't, and sticks to a target quite well through manoeuvres, but you're paying for it with a much shorter range and small warhead, as well as bad flare rejection. I also don't really think the average blue player will benefit much when the F-5's signature move is to dump both missiles at under half their minimum range, panic, and then complain about the 9P being garbage only to ask "what's uncage?" when someone asks them if they did it or not.

 

The setup we have now isn't so much skewed towards the MiG as skewed towards people who know how missiles work, IMO. F-5s who launch at the proper range, with uncage, will have no trouble deleting MiGs at ranges where the R-60 won't cut it. They just need to make sure they keep that little bit of buffer distance between them, so their weapons are still effective but the R-60 isn't. Getting into a low-speed 1 circle fight with a 21 is a really stupid idea, but that doesn't stop a lot of them from doing it anyway.

 

As it is, I sit in GCI and watch some MiGs dump 4, 5, even 6 missiles at a single fleeing target who is clearly out of range. A few weeks ago I spotted one absolute hero launching his entire supply of R-60s from more than 10 kilometres away. New players will slowly learn with experience like we all did, or they'll fall into the second category: you can't fix stupid.

 

On 2/16/2021 at 11:57 AM, CrazyGman said:

 

Really the AIM 9P and the 24J on the Viggen are basically on par with the R60. R60 is slightly more manuverable (but just barely) 9p and 24J keep their steam longer then the R60, and hit harder (A-10s and Harriers have about a 50% chance of eating a R60 and continue flying and fighting) with uncageing in the viggen and F-5 you don't need to worry about keeping  your nose as precisely on targert as you need for the almost 1.5 seconds with the R60 in the 21. Both missles become useless once a knife fight starts between an F-5 and 21  as long as either oppenent keep it close and keep pulling his nose around.

 

 I'd say about 1 in 10 missle shots i take with a R60 would hit rather then miss if I had fired a 9p or 24J in the same parameters vs a manuvering target. But i'd say the 24J and AIM 9P would hit vs a retreating target at full speed from a longer range then the R60, and you have more flexibility with nose position. If you are slow and your nose is wobbling around with the F-5 and Viggen vs the MiG 21

 

I feel the plane sets balance each other out Nicely right noe. Viggen can take up to 6 24Js (granted most missions only offer 36 of the missiles in total) the MiG 21 is slightly better then the F-5 in the air to air role and F-5 is slightly better then the MiG in the air to ground role.

 

 

 

Thanks for your guys' opinions. Tbh, I forgot how many dang missiles the Viggen can carry. After reading both your comments, I agree with them and therefore have to change my stance.

1 hour ago, Pilot Ike said:

...

... We may see, if Alpenwolf really adds the AH-64D in a test phase. His last statement could be interpreted like he's refraining from that initial idea. 

...

Yes, we may see. I don't think one mission as big as Search & Destroy or Prince of Persia couldn't handle a few Apaches to give Red some new type of challenge for a while.

On a side note, most missions featuring the Ka-50 have 10 helicopters only. Only 1 mission where 12 are available and 4 missions where only 8 Ka-50's are there. 1 mission has even 6 Black Sharks only (currently offline and undergoing some changes). That's very limited. When the Mi-24 arrives there will be 6-8 (maybe 4 in a mission or 2) Ka-50's only! If that's not limited then I don't know what is. Let's not forget that not every Black Shark pilot is that deadly as thankfully demonstrated in the video posted by Shadow a couple of days ago.

Don't get me wrong, my friend, but it's such a big fuss where I honestly fail to see any significant discrepancies and obviously others too regarding the Ka-50. I respect how you stand by your opinion but you are really the only one who sees a number of decisive advantages regarding the outcome of battle in favour of Red. And I do read every post here so I would know if there has ever been anyone claiming the like so strongly where he sees one side discriminated like that. The setup is never perfect, I know. And I never claim it to be. It's just that the things you point out are not what you claim them to be. Surely not such obvious and significant advantages as you see in the Ka-50 or (forgive me for bringing up an old discussion) back in the day arguing that Blue were at such a disadvantage in the mission Behind Enemy Lines, where a total of 8 other forum members who fly on both sides told you otherwise.

You're more than welcome to share your opinion and write whatever you like. And I truly respect your opinion even though I don't agree with the claims regarding the Ka-50.

Stay safe, mate, and God bless!

3 hours ago, Alpenwolf said:

where a total of 8 other forum members who fly on both sides told you otherwise.

Well, I have the silent majority behind me 

Thank you, take care buddy. 

So I was wondering is there anyway to prioritize where GCI/AWACS channels fall in the list either individually player to player or for the mission in general.

The issue is on maps with the MiG 15. Due to it's old radio it doesn't have frequency 124.00 so there are maps where if you do a boogey dope call with the hot key in the MiG 21 your calling the MiG 15 channel which is useless.

As a result, while the blue team can generally always use the hotkey to get a corrisponding awacs, red mig 21 and mig 19 players can't. And instead have to press backslash, then F7, then F2, then F4 to get a boogey dope to the nearest bandit on scope, which is a bit of a pain when i'm banking on the deck brushing the treetops and trying to find bandits.

This would also be nice on maps with multiple EWRs as you could prioritize calling the one nearest to you, for both side.

I understand that this is just due to how DCS is setup, and it might not be posdible to change. I then wonder if anyone has found a workaround