Igla implementation IRL

I've seen many contradicting info and comments on the implementation of Iglas in the KA-50, so I wonder: What did actually happen in regards to Igla integration into the Ka-50 in real life? Does anyone know of any real life information and/or pictures of Iglas on the Ka-50?

From KA-50 FAQ #51

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=620282&postcount=51

From KA-50 FAQ #51

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=620282&postcount=51

Right, I forgot about this post :lol:

But that raises the question: Why do we get them? What's the reasoning behind this change of mind by ED?

Right, I forgot about this post :lol:

 

But that raises the question: Why do we get them? What's the reasoning behind this change of mind by ED?

My guess

11 year of internet saying:" But why? I want them, WHAAAA!"

Even a loving parent cant take so much from their children, imagine strangers dealing with some else kids.

Because this capability has been required for years by the community despite ED's refusal. Almost since 2009 when the Ka50 was released. After countless discussions, rants, threats and "experts" exchanges, I guess ED gave up and decided to answer their customers.

I am fine with this though. If I don't want to give an air to air capability to Ka-50 in my missions, it's easy to restrict. Plus it is not totally unrealistic from a technical point of view to fire iglas from a Ka50. Also, it will give the kids on public/pvp servers something more to play with.

I think ED decided to add L370 DIRCM & Iglas for two reasons:

* 1st It makes the Ka-50 module more attractive for players, which means more $$$

* 2nd These additions are not too far off from reality. If the Russia MoD had decided to go the Ka-50 way it would get these systems for sure. The Ka-52 integrates them already.

I think there is nothing wrong with it, the systems will work as realistic as it could get, even if the context is fictional. But as a whole it makes sense.

On the other hand it shows that ED is flexible enough to allows "what if" content to some degree, maybe we get the canceled soviet aircraft super carrier 1143.7 Ullyanovsk (just dreaming).

If I was a KA-50 pilot I'd just carry an Igla launcher in the cockpit with me...

So really they're just saving me having to open the door...

Come Low, bitches! If ya dare... ;)

If I was a KA-50 pilot I'd just carry an Igla launcher in the cockpit with me...

 

So really they're just saving me having to open the door...

Well, thats the standard Huey/Mi8/Gaz tactic online when you are operating alone. Load up a stinger/igla team. If you see a fast mover, land, deploy stinger enjoy the view.

Hmm, that's all rather disappointing. I was hoping for some info on real life implementation of Iglas in the Ka-50 to justify the upcoming Black Shark 3 module, but instead it seems like it will just be a fantasy module that gets implemented because some kids screamed "I WANT!" loud enough. Fantasy aircraft is really not what DCS should be about :(

And yes, of course I don't have to use it if I don't like it if I fly solo, but I almost exclusively fly multiplayer and it gets more and more difficult to find servers that disable fantasy stuff that got implemented by the devs for whatever reason. :(

Consider this: The KA50 had an extremely limited combat career and the version we currently have is some sort of halfway system testbed that ED had extensive access to and does not necessarily reflect the model that the Russians would have implemented (Had they not moved on to the KA52). Noting this, it's roughly equivalent to ED releasing a YF17 and then people wondering why a systems limited prototype lacks all the bells and whistles for conventional warfighting.

I'm cool with anything being added that was either prototyped or fitted to the KA50 going on the DCS version.

I'm cool with anything being added that was either prototyped or fitted to the KA50 going on the DCS version.

Yeah, I too could accept that, which is the very reason why I opened this thread, as I was looking for some real life information that such prototypes have actually existed. There is really no need that it had been used in combat. But so far nothing came up in regards to actual prototypes with Iglas, so it looks like this is totally made up fantasy.

Google Translate

Hmm, that's all rather disappointing. I was hoping for some info on real life implementation of Iglas in the Ka-50 to justify the upcoming Black Shark 3 module, but instead it seems like it will just be a fantasy module that gets implemented because some kids screamed "I WANT!" loud enough. Fantasy aircraft is really not what DCS should be about :(…

Are you surprised just now?! On this occasion, battles between supporters of permissible and unacceptable 'fantasy' have been going on in your topic [thread=230027]Black Shark 3?[/thread] since at least June 2019 (and on Russian forums too). :)

In fact, the 'fantasy' in the DCS: Black Shark module appeared much earlier, for example, from the moment when the Kh-25ML missiles appeared in it. :smilewink:

I must admit, I haven't followed the Black Shark 3 discussion thread very closely as a lot of the things discussed in it were speculation. Last weeks newsletter was the first time I've seen a formal and official confirmation that we actually will get Iglas.

Besides that I'm not very familiar with the Ka-50 and its development history, so I hoped that there has actually been some sort of prototype testing with Iglas IRL. Hearing now that Iglas on the Ka-50 have no real life background at all and are totally made up fantasy is indeed new to me. Same thing with the Kh-25ML missiles on the Ka-50, which are rare sight on DCS MP servers at least.

I'd prefer if they added flir which later ka50s had installed... But well, make the kids happy so to take their money for future dcs improvements, as long as this trend(adding fantasy stuff due to kids) doesn't go out of control, I am ok with that.

I'd prefer if they added flir which later ka50s had installed... But well, make the kids happy so to take their money for future dcs improvements, as long as this trend(adding fantasy stuff due to kids) doesn't go out of control, I am ok with that.

Yeah, but where to draw the line between for things going out of control? I would prefer they wouldn't even start bringing fantasy features to DCS :(

Hearing now that Iglas on the Ka-50 have no real life background at all and are totally made up fantasy is indeed new to me. Same thing with the Kh-25ML missiles on the Ka-50, which are rare sight on DCS MP servers at least.

Problem is that those things ain't fantasy, but based to reality. The KA-50 is still very unknown by its true capabilities, and what we have is two big serial production upgrades older, a one specific of few u its that went to second Chechen war for trials (and really excelled there).

What ED is doing, is taking a known weapons and systems that were either tested and validated for the KA-50 operational use, and they simply implement those to one KA-50 version that has likely never existed as whole with all of them at once.

So there are official specs, presentations, sales material, plans, test results etc etc, and they use real things.

What is reality, is that it is known what some of features were, but ED is not modeling so advanced KA-50 version as they have no access to it. So they are backporting known and tested features to older version with educational guessing's. Just like many features in many modules are done. Like we do not have reality where west IR missiles were greatly ignoring West flares but once saw a Russian flare they went straight to them, and same vice versa. No, what we have is unbalanced and unrealistic flare dismission where every flare is identical, or the years old dilemma with DCS missile guidances and performances.

KA-50 has had since launch major proportion of its functions disabled, now they are about to get them implemented, but at what accuracy level? Our targeting pods are unrealistic, too accurate, too detailed and too easily spotting ground units etc. It doesn't matter wannabie pilots as they get to see things go BOOM. But you don't see jittery in targeting pods stabilization, no wandering off, no locking problems, no out of details visibility etc. And nothing about ground troops tactics to avoid getting visible on FLIR or radards etc. Fantastic fantasy for all that modern parts, but same people get annoyed when something would be added to KA-50 it should have as prototype (eventually added for design of serial production)

Like here is one of the KA-50 serial production versions before 2008, years after our #25 that went to second Chechnya war in 2001...

So what version is the deniers really denying? As they don't know even what there isn't and what there is.

Only thing for fact that is known, is that KA-50 didn't have IGLA-V system when it went to Chechnya, but as well it is known that after the experience there, pilots recommended A-A capabilities with IGLA, that got tested in versions that came back (after ED made module) and it was accepted as official KA-50 weaponries' for serial production. And the image you see above is couple upgrades after that ED has accessed to #25, and it is unknown port.

So what ED does, is they take known systems, weapons etc, and they implement them as the KA-50 was designed to have them, like the KA-52 does have them in reality. As the logical guessing is, KA-50 would be as capable as KA-52 but without A-G radar in nose cone and second pilot.

If a country would had made ie. 50 units purchase from KAMOV for updated KA-50, they could have many things that we don't ever see...

What ED is doing, is taking a known weapons and systems that were either tested and validated for the KA-50 operational use, and they simply implement those to one KA-50 version that has likely never existed as whole with all of them at once.

 

So there are official specs, presentations, sales material, plans, test results etc etc, and they use real things.

 

What is reality, is that it is known what some of features were, but ED is not modeling so advanced KA-50 version as they have no access to it. So they are backporting known and tested features to older version with educational guessing's.

This was exactly my understanding when I started this thread and asked for these real life infos of Igla implementation on Ka-50 in general (not on our specific #25) and got told that there never were any efforts of implementing Iglas into the Ka-50.

I would be ok with getting Iglas if they have actually been implemented in any real life Ka-50 at some point.

So I'm back to where I was at the beginning of this thread: Does anyone know anything specific of how and when Kamov worked on Igla implementation into the Ka-50?

I would prefer they wouldn't even start bringing fantasy features to DCS :(

The DCS is more full of "fantasies" by other systems like TGP, laser designators, Mavericks seekers, AGM-88 HARM capability, Link-16 capabilities, the ground units stupidity, air radars performances etc etc...

The whole multiplayer genre is full of hotshots who do not understand that they do not have more than one life.... So they fly and operate aircrafts based that they have infinity lives and planes and weapons cost only bits....

Want to see more reality in DCS multiplayer? Insta death.... Plane license to cost 5€ and if you wreck that aircraft, you need to buy a new license.... If you kill your pilot, it is 10€ fee to get back to server....

Lets then see how "fantasy" flying does then these wannabie pilots do.... Those who call things "fantasy KA-50"...

Fantasies are those who fly those simulated aircrafts out of their purpose and out of fear of death.

The DCS is more full of "fantasies" by other systems like TGP, laser designators, Mavericks seekers, AGM-88 HARM capability, Link-16 capabilities, the ground units stupidity, air radars performances etc etc...

 

The whole multiplayer genre is full of hotshots who do not understand that they do not have more than one life.... So they fly and operate aircrafts based that they have infinity lives and planes and weapons cost only bits....

 

Want to see more reality in DCS multiplayer? Insta death.... Plane license to cost 5€ and if you wreck that aircraft, you need to buy a new license.... If you kill your pilot, it is 10€ fee to get back to server....

 

Lets then see how "fantasy" flying does then these wannabie pilots do.... Those who call things "fantasy KA-50"...

 

Fantasies are those who fly those simulated aircrafts out of their purpose and out of fear of death.

Well, there are obviously limits to what a simulation can do and things like bad AI or too stable TGP are not really what I would call "fantasy features", but are just results of the limits of what software development can do and how a game needs to work (e.g. you can't kill the player IRL if he dies ingame). Sure, things like bad AI and too stable TGPs can be improved if ressources allow for, but you're entirely missing my point here. These issues are something entirely different than purposfully implementing actual aircraft features or weapons into the game that didn't exist IRL.

Google Translate

Yeah, but where to draw the line between for things going out of control? I would prefer they wouldn't even start bringing fantasy features to DCS :(

Unfortunately, with DCS: Black Shark -> Black Shark 3 modules, we have a situation similar to that in which, for example, if the ED released the DCS: Mi-24P module and then 'modified' it into the DCS: Mi-35M module. The only difference is that the Mi-35M is still a modification of a real helicopter, and a modification like Black Shark 3 has never existed in reality. :hmm:

I would be ok with getting Iglas if they have actually been implemented in any real life Ka-50 at some point.

 

So I'm back to where I was at the beginning of this thread: Does anyone know anything specific of how and when Kamov worked on Igla implementation into the Ka-50?

We do not know what we do not know.

The Kamov has officially stated that KA-50 weaponry includes IGLA, and Kh-25 etc... But what we do know is that KA-50 got not purchased as planned.

So because deniers can not show that there never was KA-50 with IGLA, it is proof that there was testing because weapons manufacturer says so....

As we know already by fact that KA-52 has IGLA system, and KA-50 got much higher modernization upgrades than we have in DCS, then educated guesses can be made by many ways to confirm the weapons manufacturer stated claims that KA-50 would have IGLA.

But here is my personal opinion. ED should get information officially from Kamov for new version of KA-50 as they did with original, and make the KA-50 "black shark 3" as modern as possible, so glass cockpit and all... So add ao much modernization they can actually do, and if one designer would say "yes, we implemented IGLA capability" then that is enough to confirm it, as is the official weapons listing.

This is similar problem as R-27ER missile performance that so many is claiming to be terrible etc. As no Russian defense department official would allow a modern Russian air force fly with a R-27ER missiles unless it is capable to be a threat to enemy and perform as well as the counter part. That would be like saying that Russia should today wear R-60 instead R-73 because that is as stupid believe that Russia would operationally use weapons that would guarantee a death of their pilot once the first engagement happens. There is very little known about R-27 missile performance and capabilities publicly, unlike what is known about ie. AIM-120. Yet all are behind secrecy...

It is interesting when discussing with old (soon, or already dead) test pilots who got to evaluate aircrafts in cold war era that west didn't know, and you learned that the platforms like MiG-23 and MiG-25 and weapons for those like R-23 and R-24 were far more advanced and capable than you can find even today from internet materials that doesn't even mention anything about major details.

The information cold war has never ended. There is a huge "iron curtain" even today hanging between west and east. Things that many would say are "fantasies" simply because they don't know better.

… So I'm back to where I was at the beginning of this thread: Does anyone know anything specific of how and when Kamov worked on Igla implementation into the Ka-50?

:no:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4017310 etc.

UPD.

… and if one designer would say "yes, we implemented IGLA capability" then that is enough to confirm it, as is the official weapons listing…

Только вот её не то, что не используют в бою, так даже и на полигонах не стреляли

:)

:no:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4017310 etc.

Thanks a lot for this very enlightening link! :thumbup:

At the same time its pretty frustrating to see that ED ist just throwing their stance on realism in the bin and are now going to implement a system into the Ka-50 which they vigorously rejected in the past, just because "they want too" :(

Here's the link for the google translated version if someone else is interested as well: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.eagle.ru%2Fshowpost.php%3Fp%3D4017310%26postcount%3D767

@Fri13

Sorry, but you're doing a lot of speculation there, which is the exact opposite of what I wanted to achieve with this thread. I wanted to get some actual real life info on Igla implementation into the Ka-50 (which apparently doesn't exist) and not another round of speculations. Besides that you're throwing a lot of other topics into the mix that have nothing to do with the Igla implementation for the Ka-50.

I don't think ED will get another look in any book of Russian weapons, no matter what kind.

Read some news and you can easily see why.

Those days, mid 90's to early 2000, when Russia opened their doors, ARE GONE.

The cold war is back, in many ways.