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MW 50 or GM-1


JG13Wulf

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Hello,

 

As you can find on internet, there were 2 war emergency power possible on Fw 190 A8.

Some plane could be equiped with MW 50 (like D9 and K4) and other had the high altitude GM1 system.

 

In the future, are we going to have the MW 50 or the GM1 (or both) as a choice in the mission editor ?

 

Thanks ! :)

 

EDIT : Post 9 for my sources !


Edited by JG13~Wulf
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Yes it had them ^^

The most used was the MW 50. First Anton to get this was the A4.

Some (less) get the GM 1. But A8 version is the one with the greatest number planes with GM-1 system.

 

Easy to find documentation about. But I agree that not all the planes produced get MW 50 or GM 1.

 

EDIT : Some get the Erhöhte Notleistung emergency power system if they didn't had the MW50 or GM1.

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Easy to find documentation about.

Would you publish any, please?

 

btw. where was carried liquid for these MW and GM?

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I just read in 3 differents sources in french :

 

The Fw 190 A8 was construct with GM1 system as the standard emergency power with a 85 liters tank of nitrous oxide. But it was possible to modify the GM-1 system to have a MW 50 system with a 145 liters tank.

 

So I think it need some investigation. But you can find too that MW 50 was used since Fw 190 A4 !

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The A-8 model was the first Anton equipped with your mentioned 115 ltrs tank.

How could A-4 (or A-5,6 and 7, or earlier F,G) have MW or GM if there was not tank which carried liquid for it?

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SOURCE 1 :

First here some screen from a book about Fw 190 (french but i try to translate under).

zL81pVk.jpg

A4u3qK2.jpg

sXIoMMW.jpg

 

First picture, first part of the text under Fw 190A8 :

"

It is at the beginning of this year 1944 that comes out of the chains of the last version of the series A which will know a mass production: fw 190 A8. It still uses the same BMW 801 D2 engine but also carries an additional internal 115L tank that fits behind the pilot seat, which is added to the two 232 and 292L belly tanks. The GM-1 overheating system with its 85L tank saves the aircraft 60 km / h up and down at 2700 rpm and is mainly used on the A8 / R1 ..."

 

Second picture, first part :

"The air-cooled double-star 14-cylinder BMW 801 D2 engine is equipped with a two-stage compressor that restores to 1500 and 5000 meters and develops 1705 hp at take-off. In flight, an automatic device regulates the engine speed, the intake pressure and the air / fuel mixture. An overpower system is mountable and usable a tens of minutes. It increases the speed of some 20 km / h. Designated MW50 (methanol wasser = 50% methanol and 50% water), it consists of a tank of 140 lites replacing the rear fuselage tank. The assembly in the same place of a GM-1 tank of 85L (nitrous oxide based melenge) is also possible and provides a gain of 60 km / h up and down at 2700 rpm but increases the total weight of the device of 35 kg ..."

 

---------------------------------------------

SOURCE 2

 

Then here is a link who talk about Fw 190 in general. There is data about emergency power (french too google translate under).

http://fandavion.free.fr/FOCKE.WULF-190-constructeurs.htm

From link above :

"Les craintes des Britanniques s'apaisèrent le jour où, par suite d'une erreur de navigation, l'Oberleutnant Arnim Faber, « Adjutant » du l l l/JG-2, se posa avec un Fw-190 intact sur la base de Pembrey, dans le sud du pays de Galles. Le 23 juin 1942, les ingénieurs anglais purent donc, tout à loisir, étudier la « bête rare » et la faire voler, constatant ainsi que sa vitesse de pointe (629 km/h) était inférieure à celles du Spitfire IX et du Typhoon. En revanche, le Spitfire V apparut dépassé.

 

Ces données furent vite périmées, avec l'apparition au sein de Jagdgeschwader basés en France d'une nouvelle version du Fw-190, le A-4. Propulsé par un BMW-801 D-2 de 1705 ch, il était en outre équipé d'un système d'injection d'eau et de méthanol (MW-50) qui lui donnait pendant de courtes périodes une puissance de 2 100 ch et lui permettait des pointes de l'ordre de 670 km/h à 6 200 m, vitesse comparable à celles du Spitfire IX (657 km/h) et du Typhoon (645 km/h), en service à la mi-1942. Des sous-versions du Fw-190.A-3 apparurent également à cette époque : le Fw-190.A-3/U1 comme chasseur bombardier équipa le 10(Jabo)/JG-2 et le 10(Jabo)/JG-25, de même que le Fw-190.A-3/U7, tandis que le A-3/U3 servait pour l'attaque au sol et le A-3/U4 pour la reconnaissance."

 

==> translation google :

"

British fears abated the day when Oberleutnant Arnim Faber, "adjutant" of lll / JG-2, landed an intact Fw-190 on the basis of Pembrey, due to a navigation error. South Wales. On June 23, 1942, the English engineers could, therefore, study the "rare beast" and make fly, so note that the top speed (629 km / h) was lower than those of Spitfire IX and Typhoon. In contrast, the Spitfire V appeared outdated.

 

These data were quickly outdated, with the Jagdgeschwader mouse announced in France of a new version of the Fw-190, the A-4. Powered by a BMW-801 D-2 1705, it was missing a water injection system and methanol (MW-50) which gave him 2100 hp allowed him points of the from 670 km / h to 6,200 m, a speed comparable to that of Spitfire IX (657 km / h) and Typhoon (645 km / h), in service in mid-1942. Versions of the Fw-190.A-3 also appeared at this time: the Fw-190.A-3 / U1 as a bomber fighter equiped the 10 (Jabo) / JG-2 and 10 (Jabo) / JG-25, as was the Fw-190.A-3 / U7, while the A-3 / U3 was used for ground attack and the A-3 / U4 for reconnaissance."

 

In this link we have a part talking about the A8 only (because it is the most produced version of Fw 190A) :

 

"Équipé d'un compresseur à action directe à deux étages, qui rétablissait à 1 500 et 5 000 m, le moteur BMW-801 D-2 de 14 cylindres en double étoile, refroidi par de l'air soufflé par une roue à aubes solidaire de l'hélice, développait 1 700 ch au décollage. Un ingénieux système permettait au pilote de régler à la fois, et au moyen d'une seule manette au lieu de trois, le régime, la pression d'admission et la richesse (mélange air-essence) du moteur. Il pouvait ainsi se consacrer exclusivement au combat et au pilotage sans risque d'erreur.

 

Le système de surpuissance MW-50 (mélange à 50 % d'eau et de méthanol), qui augmentait la vitesse de 30 km/h pendant 10 mn, avait nécessité le remplacement du réservoir arrière de fuselage par un autre réservoir contenant 140 litres du mélange spécial. Autre système de surpuissance, le GM-1 (protoxyde d'azote) se composait d'un réservoir de 85 litres et permettait d'augmenter la vitesse de 60 km/h."

 

==> Translate (google) :

"Equipped with a two-stage direct-acting compressor, which restored the 1,500 -5,000-m engine, the BMW-801 D-2 twin-cylinder engine, cooled by air blown by a solid impeller. of the propeller, developed 1,700 hp at takeoff. An ingenious system allowed the pilot to adjust the engine speed, intake pressure and fuel efficiency (air-fuel mixture) at the same time, using a single throttle instead of three. He could devote himself exclusively to combat and piloting without risk of error.

 

The MW-50 (50% water and methanol mixture), which increased the speed by 30 km / h for 10 minutes, required the replacement of the rear fuselage tank with another tank containing 140 liters of water. special mixture. Another overpowering system, GM-1 (nitrous oxide) consisted of a tank of 85 liters and allowed to increase the speed of 60 km / h."

 

----------------------------------------------

 

SOURCE 3:

Finally a last link about the topic. In english this time.

http://www.airvectors.net/avfw190.html

In the link above (in english) :

"The Spitfire IX did help even the odds over the long run, but Focke-Wulf was still churning out better versions of the Butcher Bird. The "Fw 190A-4" went into production in late 1942, the primary improvement being the addition of an "MW 50" water-methanol power boost system for the BMW 801 engine. The MW 50 injected water into the engine's cylinders to raise the engine's redline limit for a short period of time. The methanol was mainly intended as anti-freeze. The A-4 also introduced a small but distinctive modification in the form of a short radio aerial wire mast mounted on top of the tailfin. This item would be retained in later production. The A-4 was the first Fw 190 subvariant to see real service on the Eastern Front."

 

"The next subvariant, the "Fw 190A-8", turned out to be the most heavily produced of all Fw 190 subvariants, with over 1,300 built. It was essentially an A-7 with the option for either GM-1 nitrous-oxide engine boost for high-altitude operation, or an additional internal fuel tank, as well as many detail improvements."

 

--------------------------

Just something else :

Not MW 50 or GM-1 (if i clearly understand but another way to boost engine ) :

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8.html

"Increased emergency power: Starting from July 1944 all Fw 190 A-8 aircraft will be equipped with "increased emergency". By overridding the supercharger boost regulator, boost pressures are increased at take-off and emergency power in low supercharger setting from 1,42 ata to 1,58 ata and at the high supercharger setting from 1,42 to 1,65 ata. Thus an increase of speed up to 13.6 mph (22 km/h) is obtained with low supercharger operation and up to 15.5 mph (25 km/h) with high supercharger operation. The maximum operating time for increased emergency is limited to 10 minutes due to thermal reasons. (Ab Juli 1944 werden sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 mit "erhöhter Notleistung" ausgerüstet. Durch Eingriff in den Ladedruckregler wird der Ladedruck der Start- und Notleistung im Bodenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,58 ata, im Höhenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,65 ata heraufgesetzt. Hierdurch wird ein Geschwindigkeitsgewinn bis 22 km/h bei Bodenladerbetrieb und bis zu 25 km/h im Höhenladerbetrieb erzielt.; (sich Flugleistungen Bl. 15). Die höchstzulässige Betriebsdauer für erhöhte Notleistung ist aus thermischen Gründen 10 Minuten begrenzt.)"

 

-----------------------

I'm sure I can find more ! But I think it's enough :)

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even so gm-1 is for high alt so not that usefull for DCS

mw50 this one is usefull

 

I'd like to have the plane correctly made.

Yes it's maybe not usefull for BS server. But could be usefull for historical mission.

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Well i did expect some chards or report with performance etc.

 

Because i have found only one Anton with MW, A-4 S/N 231 radio call SB+IK tested in Rechlin in 1943 with insufficient result...

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That book constitutes a Secondary Source in historian terminology.

 

Where did the author of that volume source his information from?

 

You need to provide a Primary Source, some hard data from WW2, not potential hearsay being regurgitated in a book that looks like it was published in the late 60's or '70's, without references being made available and therefore cannot be corroborated.

 

A lot more Luftwaffe documents have been unearthed in the past 40-50 years that could render the information in that book completely inaccurate.

 

This why primary Source material is always better when attempting to prove/disprove the likelihood of these details.

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In the Baubeschreibung here it is mentioned that the tank can be filled with MW-50 as well. From Nov 44. Under sondernotleistung it only goes in detail about GM-1 and the MP increase though....

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/FockeWulf/Fw%20190/284_Fw_190_A_8.pdf

 

Other than that ive also only found mentions of very late model 801s (S&F models) which could be used with MW-50, but nothing reliable.

 

The document also mentions the Erhöhte notleistung (incresed MP without any injection) for A-8s as of July 44.

 

EDIT: Read it in some more detail. It is mentioned that as of August/September 44 A-8s will be delivered with the additional tank. The tank could be used for MW-50, fuel, or GM-1, however currently the plan is only to carry additional fuel. It also mentions as I said that as of July 44 "sämtliche" A-8s (numerous A-8s) will receive/received the Erhöhte Notleistung (MP increase).

 

I would think that any aircraft delivered with the tank built in would have had the increased MP modifications already incorporated on it as well...


Edited by DefaultFace

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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That book constitutes a Secondary Source in historian terminology.

 

Where did the author of that volume source his information from?

 

You need to provide a Primary Source, some hard data from WW2, not potential hearsay being regurgitated in a book that looks like it was published in the late 60's or '70's, without references being made available and therefore cannot be corroborated.

 

A lot more Luftwaffe documents have been unearthed in the past 40-50 years that could render the information in that book completely inaccurate.

 

This why primary Source material is always better when attempting to prove/disprove the likelihood of these details.

 

Yeah I understand that DCS need hard data. But I'm not expert in aviation or historian. There are people here who have better sources than me or know where to find it. So if I can find informations about it, I'm sure they have better.

 

And even if I don't have hard data, these informations are still valuable. Lot of different sources talking about the same thing in the same way with the same numbers.

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So if I can find informations about it, I'm sure they have better.
So trust they did their job. This topic was discussed well before launch and apparently sources say there were only negligible examples of MW50 Fw190A due to not being worth it IIRC.

 

 

And even if I don't have hard data, these informations are still valuable. Lot of different sources talking about the same thing in the same way with the same numbers.
Careful with those, old books used to talk all of them just about hearsay they read in another book, which also wrote by hearsay. In the end the "real source" is also hearsay and there are no hard evidence at all of this or that. You think you're reading "many sources" saying the same but no, they all talk about the same hearsay they read in another of those books, authors back then used other books as valid and true sources but that's far from a good historian job. Books aren't sources if they don't list their actual sources, and old books share their sin in so bad actual documentation when not absolute lack of it. They are responsible for so many urban legends alive until nowadays and use to be quite unreliable.

 

 

As somebody said somewhere talking about this subject, it's easier than it looks, just take actual charts of the model and see if those use MW50/GM-1/whatever or not. If you don't find those charts that's a hard evidence meaning something.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Also, they copied the controls from the D-9 over. Would not be surprised if other elements were copied over as well, to include the MW-50 switch, yet had no intention of actually including it, just forgot or missed removing it, just like many factors not removed from the control files.

 

There is seemingly miscommunication in ED where in the description it said it would be available and YoYo saying it will not. LOTS of loose ends to clean up with this one...

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BMW 801S or F never reached serial production, their development was never finished.

Instead of them TS was produced as a "stopgap" which powered A/F-9 models.

 

But still, we are talking about Fw 190A(F)-8, powered by BMW 801D-2.

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So trust they did their job. This topic was discussed well before launch and apparently sources say there were only negligible examples of MW50 Fw190A due to not being worth it IIRC.

 

I trust they did their job.

the main question of the topic is that what they are going to do with what they find ?

 

Are we going to have only the choice in the editor between:

- nothing in the tank

- C3 in the tank

 

Or are we going to have the two other choice (GM1 and MW50) or one of them in the futur.

But the first answer was : "Never used on Anton"

So I search quickly to proof it's wrong.

 

And yes it's a possibility that all the sources come from a unique one from nowhere (but I don't think so because there are lot of other who talk about the same). It would be a big conspiracy :D

 

But as I said I don't know where to find old official doc. I'm sure they have the possibility to contact people who now. (Fighter collection, modern Luftwaffe, Airbus (they bought some old german compagnies I heard), french air force as they used NC 900 which are french made Fw 190A, ...)

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BMW 801S or F never reached serial production, their development was never finished.

Instead of them TS was produced as a "stopgap" which powered A/F-9 models.

 

But still, we are talking about Fw 190A(F)-8, powered by BMW 801D-2.

 

Yes I'm aware. Was just saying that those are what I've seen mentioned with MW-50. As well as some 45 time period A-8s with unspecified engines. Nothing concrete though.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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  • ED Team
I trust they did their job.

the main question of the topic is that what they are going to do with what they find ?

 

Are we going to have only the choice in the editor between:

- nothing in the tank

- C3 in the tank

 

Or are we going to have the two other choice (GM1 and MW50) or one of them in the futur.

But the first answer was : "Never used on Anton"

So I search quickly to proof it's wrong.

 

And yes it's a possibility that all the sources come from a unique one from nowhere (but I don't think so because there are lot of other who talk about the same). It would be a big conspiracy :D

 

But as I said I don't know where to find old official doc. I'm sure they have the possibility to contact people who now. (Fighter collection, modern Luftwaffe, Airbus (they bought some old german compagnies I heard), french air force as they used NC 900 which are french made Fw 190A, ...)

 

Additional C3 or nothing.

This was choosen to explicitly define that the mission requires additional fuel, because the additional tank shifts CoG rearwards making the plane very unfriendly.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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There is seemingly miscommunication in ED where in the description it said it would be available and YoYo saying it will not. LOTS of loose ends to clean up with this one...
I believe the module description says it's available in the F-8 we will also eventually get, but agree wording there maybe not the clearest possible.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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i flown dora after last patch and right now dora and anton have exact the same sounds at start up

same inertia starter sound and same initial ignition sound of the engine

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It would be a big conspiracy :D
Well, not exactly. You wouldn't believe how amateurs and lousy those old writers could be with regards to research and sources. They just said "it's written somewhere, it must be truth" :doh:, which wasn't the case so many times… one of them wrote whatever hearsay, ten more copied that as "a source" :music_whistling:. Luckily modern historiography is well away from that but so many "bad History" and urban legends remains from old times, not to mention books just don't disappear, they lurk here are there, and even some bad authors nowadays still use them as "source" so it's still hard to drop some misbeliefs from back then.

 

 

Just an example you may know. Old authors said (and I believed that because of them till relatively recent years) Bf109G10-K4 tall sail was wooden made due to strategic materials shortage. Also they said tall tail wheel was there to prevent the heavier wooden tail would refuse to lift due to lack of airflow. That's said in so many old books, right? Well, turns out tall tails were aluminium like any other, and tall tail wheel was there to load a SC500 bomb which lower fin would hit the ground… :doh: Fw190 isn't immune to 80 years of amateur writers either.

 

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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