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Old 05-16-2019, 06:00 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by shagrat View Post
As I said, I would love to see what happens if Yo-Yo adds the option to adjust the elevator trim tabs with a warning to do so at your own risk and how many people totally mess up their plane...
My guess is, they expect some wonderful advantage in dogfight to help them win, but only makes things "more interesting".
In my case and since I do not play air combat, but use DCS just to enjoy the "feel of flight", as much as I use IL2 GB, I will be satisfied with being able to use the aircraft to fly around and perform some aerobatics, or formation flight with other online players feeling the same harmonious control I get in the G series and the K-4 in that other sim, where indeed the trim tabs, aileron, rudder and elevator, are all set for a cruise speed of around 450 - 500 km/h
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:37 PM   #142
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Did you see my above post? It addresses what cruise is. 109s don't have pilot adjustable aileron and rudder trim.
I think, I know where we have a major misunderstanding. The English term cruise, refers to long range fuel efficient engine power, which would be "Sparleistung". Combat cruise, is maximum output without damage to the engine. Cruise is what you do when you need range to get to a known location with as much fuel left for combat, before being forced to RTB.
Combat cruise is what you fly when time is pressing to e.g. intercept enemy bombers, but you don't require much fuel management, as the intercept is already near your location.
I guess whenever Yo-Yo and ED talk about "cruise" they actually mean "cruise" and not "combat cruise".
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:10 PM   #143
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Actually that doesn't apply to the Spitfire or P-51 afaik, but may certainly be possible in some awkward way. Generally cruise is not equal to the economy setting and cruise and combat cruise can be used interchangeably. Economy setting means maximum range at minimal fuel consumption, while cruise means best range vs travel time.

Anyway, in Luftwaffe terms aircraft were trimmed for Reisegeschwindigkeit, which translates simply to cruise and is flown at maximum continous power. Depending on the theater, common combat altitude differed, so trim may have been slightly different. I just introduced the term combat cruise to describe what it meant in practice. I think the confusion stems from G-2 documents. G-2 cruise was set to 1,15 ata as that was it's maximum continous power.
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Last edited by rel4y; 05-16-2019 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:16 PM   #144
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Are we there yet? Have we reached the conclusion yet that these tabs are just there to set things up so the aircraft works as expected in a normal flight regime, rather than something that is constantly being adjusted? Hands up all aircraft riggers with flight line experience. The referral to the test results noted throughout the thread were I assume to determine the best settings to use for the above. Once that was determined, then surely the aircraft was rigged accordingly. No need to piss about with trim tabs by anyone unless the aircraft was a: damaged & required replacements, or b: in for a servicing that required the controls to be rigged.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:19 PM   #145
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Are we there yet? Have we reached the conclusion yet that these tabs are just there to set things up so the aircraft works as expected in a normal flight regime, rather than something that is constantly being adjusted? Hands up all aircraft riggers with flight line experience. The referral to the test results noted throughout the thread were I assume to determine the best settings to use for the above. Once that was determined, then surely the aircraft was rigged accordingly. No need to piss about with trim tabs by anyone unless the aircraft was a: damaged & required replacements, or b: in for a servicing that required the controls to be rigged.
and c) pull out of dives using hands only..
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:23 PM   #146
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I read that as already being part of the "working as expected" - Once the testing was completed - and all parties had agreed on what was expected, then manuals would be amended, and procedures altered accordingly.


PS. Just found this online - very interesting anecdotal stuff - with mention of the K diving issue (search for "locked up"): http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Last edited by mkiii; 05-17-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:56 AM   #147
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and c) pull out of dives using hands only..
You won't pull out of that dive, just overstress the plane and snap your wings... we have already been there in early access.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:11 AM   #148
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You won't pull out of that dive, just overstress the plane and snap your wings... we have already been there in early access.

You mean this?


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...2&postcount=31


Thats makes not much sens, then should not climb in a Spitfire and Dive?
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:22 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by MAD-MM View Post
You mean this?


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...2&postcount=31


Thats makes not much sens, then should not climb in a Spitfire and Dive?
No I meant, that there was a change where you could freely apply force to the elevator (joystick was mapped to virtual stick one to one) and everybody started complaining that he snapped his wings, now.
The change was taken back with the next patch.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:39 AM   #150
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I don't quite understand why people expect better elevator authority from trim tabs? They pretty much don't change anything at all in that respect, maybe the double sized trim tabs increased elevator area a bit, but that's it. They won't provide any advantage in pullouts or dogfights, neither will they mess up anything about the aircraft. Part of this discussion revolved exactly around that, because stab trim and trim tabs have pretty much the same effect at small deflections. All they do is trim the aircraft aka bias the elevator for a specific velocity. All that does is increase pilot comfort by increasing maximum nose down trim. What does help in a dogfight is that the elevator gearing factor changed on the K series (and G-10/U4 + some G-14 ASB/ ASC variants), which decreases stickforces.

What we have established so far is:
-K-4s had double sized trim tabs
-stab trim was limited to +1°10` = ~1,15° on late models
-stab trim was limited because double trim tabs set to nose down trim combined with high positive stab settings caused elevator force reversal* and goal was high speed pullout with the elevators only, at constant stab setting = basically safety reasons
-trim tabs were only adjusted on the ground, by the aircraft mechanic after a testflight and were not constantly readjusted (except in some test series obviously)
-we had a misconception of what cruise speed is supposed to be, Bf 109 Reisegeschwindigkeit corresponds to maximum continuous power

*elevator force reversal meaning that one needs to pull the elevator to stop the aircraft from increasing its dive angle at high Mach numbers. So at lower angles stick pull the aircraft would still nose down.

Based on this I would kindly ask ED to give us the option of elevator trim tabs in the menu or maybe trim the K-4 for a speed that more closely resembles Reisegeschwindigkeit. Based on the Soviet G-2 test about 3° elevator deflection nose heavy should be fine. But since we already have the one of a kind options in flight Sim history of trimming aileron and rudder tabs, I would be really happy about the addition of elevator trim tabs.
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Last edited by rel4y; 05-18-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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