Losing energy in turns - n00b question

I keep losing energy in my turns in the F-5. I'm a bit of a noob, so that's my official excuse.

I've tried finding a solution on YouTube and in the forums, but I can't find an answer that makes sense to me. Ergo, I am posting here.

How do I turn in the thing during a dogfight, without losing energy to the point of stalling. My Tiger always wants to stall.

I have tried turning slow, I have tried turning with flaps down, I have tried turning with my nose down. No matter what I do, I am losing energy.

Can you please tell me how you turn efficiently in combat?

I appreciate your time and answers.

Thanks!

Quite a good point to start is this wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

You can pick which maneuver is suitable for F-5 in certain situation and find more of that topic. And rehearse rehearse rehearse ...

E.g. in most situations you can out-turn Mig-21 and (s)he can out-climb you. So if you are attacked by fast-flying Mig-21 you generally don't want to initiate vertical scissors (unless you know very well what you are doing).

BTW flaps do increase drag. Doing sharp turn with flaps down causes you to lose more energy than doing it with flaps up. Maneuvering simply slows you down. Look at alpine skiing competition and compare speed of slalom and downhill racers. Who are faster? Those who turn or those who follow their noses down? ;)

Leave the flaps on auto, that what I do anyway. Any plane turning will bleed if it is beyond a certain rate, so you either need to stay below that rate, expend some energy to retain speed (drop altitude) or exchange energy for nose position (bleed speed). The key is to know when to ease off the stick and regain some energy. Dogfighting is all energy and angles. Trading one for the other. Don't try to out turn the guy in one turn (unless you have all aspect missiles which you dont in F5E) but try to gain some angles on him. Or unless you have a big energy advantage over the bogey.

This is a great video,

Also I advise you find a copy of Fighter Combat and tactics by Robert Shaw, its great :D

E.g. in most situations you can out-turn Mig-21 and (s)he can out-climb you. So if you are attacked by fast-flying Mig-21 you generally don't want to initiate vertical scissors (unless you know very well what you are doing).

I would highly recommend engaging a MiG-21 in a vertical turning fight in the F-5...if against AI. As generally the AI pilot will get 2-3 loops in before flying straight into the ground = easy win lol :joystick:

Yes. In such situation you know very well what you are doing and that AI in many situations means 'artificial idiocy'. :D

Are you flying against ai? What planes? If you fly against ai I would suggest stop wasting your time and go online.

Regarding the type of planes you fly against, the f5 is at a strong disadvantage against anything more modern in terms of energy so you need to plan your attack well and always have options to escape.

Regarding fights with the mig21 online I have found the f5 can maintain tight scissors in the horizontal and briefly in the vertical far better than the mig. It can also outturn the mig but your turns must be calculated and brief.

Check your g indication as a crude way of energy wasting. Keep your turns to a minimum and try to regain energy at every opportunity. Remember if the mig turns with you the f5 is better at it.

The f5 can handle high AoA turning better than the mig whose engine stalls easily. If the mig uses zoom and boom tactics try to use his poor cockpit visibility against him.

One obvious thing missing here is the AoA gauge. If you are pulling the nose more than around 15 degrees you bleed energy more rapidly. If you keep the gauge within that limit then the plane transitions to the next maneuver more efficiently. Also, there are things you just don't do in an F-5, like vertical fight. the plane has a high wing load, so you are running out of E the second you point the thing upstairs. If you keep this gauge where it's supposed to be then you can maintain energy in a turn all day, and you will see that it acts a lot more nimble, at least that's what I felt like when I figured this out. I started to actually win fights that I knew all along I should have been able to win.

Autoflaps - they are there for a reason, and I would say even more critical to an internet fighter pilot than a real life one because you can't feel every tiny little vibration or "feel the plane speaking to you" as in the real deal. You'll never squeeze every possible amount of E out of it because you just can't know where the limits are.

Watch a few videos on the F-14 and Top Gun training early on in the F-14 days, you will see what maneuvers to stay away from when flying the F-5 because they teach the Tomcat guys specific maneuvers / tactics vs F-5 to simulate how to deal with high wing loading fighters like the MiG-21. One that I remember clearly is the instructor telling the student to turn into the F-5, and once they merge immediately level the wings, kick the burners, and head upstairs. Clearly not a fight you can win right!!

~S

One obvious thing missing here is the AoA gauge. If you are pulling the nose more than around 15 degrees you bleed energy more rapidly. If you keep the gauge within that limit then the plane transitions to the next maneuver more efficiently. Also, there are things you just don't do in an F-5, like vertical fight. the plane has a high wing load, so you are running out of E the second you point the thing upstairs. If you keep this gauge where it's supposed to be then you can maintain energy in a turn all day, and you will see that it acts a lot more nimble, at least that's what I felt like when I figured this out. I started to actually win fights that I knew all along I should have been able to win.

 

Autoflaps - they are there for a reason, and I would say even more critical to an internet fighter pilot than a real life one because you can't feel every tiny little vibration or "feel the plane speaking to you" as in the real deal. You'll never squeeze every possible amount of E out of it because you just can't know where the limits are.

 

Watch a few videos on the F-14 and Top Gun training early on in the F-14 days, you will see what maneuvers to stay away from when flying the F-5 because they teach the Tomcat guys specific maneuvers / tactics vs F-5 to simulate how to deal with high wing loading fighters like the MiG-21. One that I remember clearly is the instructor telling the student to turn into the F-5, and once they merge immediately level the wings, kick the burners, and head upstairs. Clearly not a fight you can win right!!

 

~S

Nice info. Thank you.

Is there any tactics manual or one stop shop for F5 BFM reading? I'd like to start working on getting better at things like maintaining correct speed in one circle fight, what defensive maneuvers to use when at an energy disadvantage, etc.

Would like some hard numbers, or at least rule of thumb figures specifically for the F5.

I've been trying to make this my main ride in Blue Flag. It's a fun challenge.

You can look in the manual provided by BST. There is a secton on the AoA system and also starting on page 206 is some good info about speeds, like never get below 300KIA. I'm sure if you get your hands on a real manual it would have a chart like you are looking for.

476th have the real manuals for download:

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=79 :thumbup: