Tor does not react to incoming ARM missiles

I am amazed how Tor air-defense complex have become a puppy for the new players using SEAD engagement with the new F-18, as well will be for F-16.

So Tor right now in this moment of the F-18 and F-16 development can be defeated so easy as you can see in those tracks attached.

I have made different tracks with different engagement distance to decrease the missile speed. Nothing work. Now Tor does not see AGM-88C.

here in this video you can see the OSA system tiny missiles been shoot down :

Tor downgraded.trk

Tor downgraded-2.trk

Tor downgraded-3.trk

another track

another track

Tor downgraded-4.trk

I've found a similar issue with the Tunguska ...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=239396

I've found a similar issue with the Tunguska ...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=239396

Our Tunguska IRL can defeat cruise missiles or low horizontal path flight missiles only. Tor is in another advanced group for Air defense and now here in DCS since F-18 have AGM-88 update, suddenly this changes to downgrade TOR have been introduced.

The goal is make easy task the front-line targets for SEAD units as F-18 and next F-16.

...

I have made different tracks with different engagement distance to decrease the missile speed. Nothing work. Now Tor does not see AGM-88C...

It's funny to me, because I have a totally opposite conclusion from the track I posted on bug section : AGM88c does not see emitting Tor, while tor does destroy 1 out of 2 AGM88c.

track : (less than 1 mn)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=246044

It's funny to me, because I have a totally opposite conclusion from the track I posted on bug section : AGM88c does not see emitting Tor, while tor does destroy 1 out of 2 AGM88c.

 

track : (less than 1 mn)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=246044

Because your case is showed with a different condition. You are talking about a weakness of AGM-88 and this thread is in the opposite side talking about change doing to TOR just after F-18 can launch AGM-88.

I am talking about the main job of the TOR. Defend ground forces from incoming missiles attack. TOR was designed first to do that and second to shot against Enemy aircraft.

Hi pepin.

Please check to be sure that the "engage air weapons" option is enabled.

With this enabled, the Tor is shooting down AGM-88s on my machine without issue.

I did this test with the option you mentioned. I will do again. Actually I think it is activated in my track file

here with change above mentioned. in the 05 track you can see how TOR unit have a very delayed reaction only downed one missile of two, both launched at about 10000m.

in track 06 have no reaction at all, been destroyed. but I did change the altitud to 14000m for F-18.

Also I did another test and TOR start see the missile incoming on radar at 6km... very ridiculous.

Tor is totally blind. it is obvious they are touching TOR to make happy F-18 and F-16 modules.

while we have Roland system keep downing HARM missiles for years. such unit IRL have not this capability (even in 90s didnt have it) in early versions as TOR did. So we don't see simulation...

Tor downgraded-5.trk

Tor downgraded-6.trk

Doubt that things are being done to appease Hornets very much, but let's not start another circular argument about how you feel RU units should be superior to their Western counterparts in every way. Seen enough of those to know I have no interest in engaging. ;) Let's just play nice and see if there's really a problem with the Tor...check out the recent AI upgrades the Neustrashimy got and tell me they're trying to make Hornets happy.

RoD0Hq0k0Zw

Another important thing to consider is that these systems are not intended to be deployed as a single unit operating alone in a field. They are part of a multi-layered IADS with redundancies...if the first Tor doesn't see the missile, maybe the second or third will. If they don't get it, maybe the Tunguska's missile will. If they don't get it, maybe its guns or the Shilkas will.

The idea is to use a long range system to force the jet to fire at a distance that renders the missile easy to track and kill by the time it reaches MERAD/SHORAD territory. If the Hornet is 5 miles away screaming in at mach 1.2 that missile is going to be a hell of a lot harder to kill before its lethal to the RADAR operator.

@feefifofum friend I am talking about TOR... not Neutrashimy ship. A ship hardware is wide different. because you see the same missile launched from the ship are the same, doesn't mean that you can post this off topic. You asked me to activate the option in mission editor above mentioned and I did. Can you stay in TOR unit for the discussion?

Tor-M1 have the most advanced tracking radar for a TELAR for late 80s. How come a single F-18 with two missiles, from 34km distance at 10000m altitude can beat TOR so easily like they pretend should be with these last update. look my two tracks in post number 9. there you can see how weak have become TOR system for the AGM-88 engagement.

if you want to believe a thing or another is up to you. You hold and do flight in the Sim with the hardware that try to beat TOR defense. So if you want to jugged me, do it for yourself first.

Point about the Neustrashimy is that I doubt very much ED is deliberately downgrading SAM systems to somehow appease people flying the F/A-18C, while simultaneously making naval vessels impossible to kill with coordinated 4-ship attack at a reasonable range. It stands to reason that if their goal was to make the F/A-18C seem more lethal, all systems would be incapable of defending against the mighty Hornet and the AGM-88 would sink warships.

Back to the Tor, I think I've finally got something you can report. Change your Hornet's starting altitude to 25,000 feet and watch the Tor smoke AGM-88s like nobody's business. Push the Hornet back up to 45,000 and it acts like the shot wasn't even fired. If I were to hazard a guess, perhaps it isn't engaging AGMs if the launch platform isn't detected which would most certainly be a bug.

I'd suggest providing two basic tracks without the unit emission trigger in the main DCS 2.5 bug reports thread, and a brief descriptions minus the conspiracy theories and toxicity towards ED...looks like you may have found something.

@feefifofum again... Neutrashimy is very different chapter. Doesn’t have the same sensor and the name of whole system is different. The usability of Neutrashimy ship in % speaking is very low compared to TOR. So my main point and the most important point is if they make weaker TOR unit, they will put widely weaker the general missions, because the simple reason TOR seem to be more in mission than the off topic ship you want to talk about.

TOR Unit is playable in Combined arms and make a very important roll in the whole defense for the red side. So your suggestion to post this bug in a different place is worth it but is not a must because CA use TOR to play around in a RED defense configuration.

About the toxicity... 4 years ago I reported the ROLAND ADS in our Sim was over performed like never IRL was. The reaction was leave it the same do nothing... here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=150778&highlight=Roland

You know, your opinion about judging a person with proofs calling him Toxicity... is the most close to a dictatorship system. So if this is the freedom you fight for in this Sim with your F-18/harrier module. You are in the wrong way. So stop judging me... look for yourself...

Dude, relax. Please. Maybe this is a translation issue but everything you write comes off as extremely hostile. It has nothing to do with the technical issues you report but rather accusations that developers are deliberately, maliciously introducing bugs to somehow weaken REDFOR. It's the kind of attitude that makes anyone who isn't extremely patient have zero interest in communicating with you.

I've done my testing to satisfy my own curiosity and agreed that there appears to be a bug specific to high altitude launches. Not sure how it makes me a dictator to suggest you report a bug without attacking the integrity of the devs. You might be surprised at the results.

In any event, I've said my piece, have a good day.

Dude, relax. Please. Maybe this is a translation issue but everything you write comes off as extremely hostile. It has nothing to do with the technical issues you report but rather accusations that developers are deliberately introducing bugs to somehow weaken Russian forces. It's the kind of attitude that makes anyone who isn't extremely patient have zero interest in communicating with you.

 

I've done my testing to satisfy my own curiosity and agreed that there appears to be a bug specific to high altitude launches. Not sure how it makes me a dictator to suggest you report a bug without attacking the integrity of the devs. You might be surprised at the results.

 

In any event, I've said my piece, have a good day.

Don’t call me dude. You don’t know me. And if report bugs that damage a side specific in this case the red side make you call people Toxic then you are the problem.

First you come out with an off topic. (Reported to the moderator)

Second you call me Toxic because I am reporting a bug after been reported another similar bug 4 years ago but in this case over performing the real Blue side SAM in the same level of TOR. (Never was solved)

Third. If we keep reporting bugs we are in conspiracy.

The way is becoming the report is the result of many Red player thread closed after been offended from people like you. Your off-topic post was reported and nothing happen. Maybe this thread will be closed as manny other. Then yes we are in a problem in the community with no reaction to this.

If we can not report bugs and speak clear after years been forgotten. Then we should be banned from this Sim and make a Sim and community for F-18, Harriers only...

SA-15 not engaging ARMs

There appears to be an issue with the SA-15 when attacked from high altitude. The Tor's AI was set to excellent, ALARM STATE forced red, engage air weapons enabled, and ROE confirmed as WEAPONS FREE.

Find attached two .miz files; when an AGM-88 is launched from 26,000 feet, the Tor successfully tracks and engages the missile.

If the launch platform is at 46,000 feet, the missile is never detected and the Tor doesn't defend itself.

There also appears as though there may be an issue defending against subsequent attacks, even at low altitude; during my testing the Tor would typically cease to fire after engaging the first two ARMs.

Thanks!

SA-15 High Altitude ARM Defense.miz

SA-15 Low Altitude ARM Defense.miz

Whats going on here? Lol

I can only say from my experience in MP. I don't think ED modified TOR capability in DCS recently to appease F-18 users. I dont think ED even modified Tor at all (intentionally at least) I can see Tor reacts properly in MP. it still shoots incoming missiles in its detection range, quite aggresive IMO. My tactic always let it shoot first and at last minute I shoot it back. That way I make it busy tracking me and let my missile slips in. It works almost all the time.

To be honest, I didnt see your track (Im not at my comp). You might be right tho but my experience says its fine.

Whats going on here? Lol

I can only say from my experience in MP. I don't think ED modified TOR capability in DCS recently to appease F-18 users. I dont think ED even modified Tor at all (intentionally at least) I can see Tor reacts properly in MP. it still shoots incoming missiles in its detection range, quite aggresive IMO. My tactic always let it shoot first and at last minute I shoot it back. That way I make it busy tracking me and let my missile slips in. It works almost all the time.

To be honest, I didnt see your track (Im not at my comp). You might be right tho but my experience says its fine.

Please Try to replicate exactly like in my tracks. 35km distance, 10000m altitude launched. Maybe humans have not this problem. I don’t have F-18 module

nice find on the altitudes Fi! Good work through adversity!

Thanks you all.

I forgot mention. In every of my test the elevation of the TOR tracking radar was about 16 degrees, so this parameter was correct for a good tracking ( that never happen) inside the 12km range limit. So to go in this bug just set F-18 in the Tor detection radar limit (is about 35km) and set altitude for 10000m or up. Most of the time the Tor reaction will be extremely late for a first reaction ones AGM-88 get inside 6km range and if we add the time for launch ready you can get a first Tor launch when AGM-88 is 3,5km distance. So TOR have no time to face AGM-88 in this case.

This bug is not addressed AGM-88 launches at less than 10000m.