Techniques for beating the F-16...

Are there any specific strategies/techniques when it comes to BFM against the F-16CM Block 50?

The F-16 has incredible power and performance, but is it unbeatable?

I am looking forward to what everyone has to say!

Put a worse pilot than you into the F-16 ....

j/k of course.

(But also, speaking as a really clumsy BFM'er, true)

Anyway, more seriously, do you mean:

(1) guns only

(2) guns + missiles, not including the Aim-9X

(3) guns + missiles, including the Aim-9X

I imagine each of this would demand a different gameplan. I leave it to better pilots than I to contribute useful answers. But If missiles are allowed and you are carrying Phoenix's, then I think the answer is Phoenix before the merge!

Guns and/or AIM-9M only...

Atm you can beat the F-16 in a flat turn or downward spiral quite readily, but don't follow it in a high speed uphill turn.

The F-14 is still the king of the one circle fight, so try to get the F-16 lured into one of those. A 2 circle fight is just going to end it endless amount of head ons.

Haven't had an F-16 survive long enough to merge with it ;) but I would probably try to get him low and slow and constantly turn directly into him.

Gun it in the face at the merge.

Keep your speed over 400 and you can turn with him all day. Or you can slow down if you're confident in your slow speed handling, you've got more to lose there. But I stick to over 400 or under 250.

If you're going to stay fast, well.stay fast, but be patient, because both jets do well there.

Just practice, if you die, whatever you did before you died, don't do that again.

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Gun it in the face at the merge.

Both sides can do that. I think the OP doesn't want to be gunned down himself :D

Atm you can beat the F-16 in a flat turn or downward spiral quite readily, but don't follow it in a high speed uphill turn.

 

The F-14 is still the king of the one circle fight, so try to get the F-16 lured into one of those. A 2 circle fight is just going to end it endless amount of head ons.

I agree with this. In 1V1, an F-16 a bit too much near your 6 can also be beaten by a good F-14 jockey doing rolling scissors. You indeed can turn all day with him at high speed but your day will end before his, when your fuel tanks get empty and not his.

Given that real life is different, because swagging around at 6G is only a thing in sims, but Okie told us that he kept the aircraft level at 30° AOA if the F16 went high, which irl was an enormous task, he said, sweat pouring down, you'd have to literally dance with your rudders to keep her stable and pull extremely hard at the same time. (It works ingame btw.) The F16s would always think he is a sitting duck and come back down under him, in which case he simply rolled over on them. The A btw excelled better at this, because the TF30s would not limit fuel injection and thus trust at high AOAs like the F110s. Zone 5 would always be zone 5, not matter the AOA, which made her even better at slow turns.

In DCS this might be a problem though, because no real life pilot would make a straight dive onto the slow bandit, potentially risking a collision or FOD, or shoot inside the no shoot X (which exists for the same reason). In DCS no one cares about that.

But it is a fun technique to master.

I've flown many many many guns only dogfights with AI F-16s so for what THAT's worth:

At the merge, I stay cognizant of the stern conversion. I keep my airspeed fairly high (400+) and start a nose up turn toward him. If there is enough turning room, I roll over and pull my nose on him and decrease power since I'm going pretty fast already and will get speed as I nose down (don't want too much energy or blackout or ripping the plane apart). As I roll down into him, I look up to keep him tallied and use the rudders to correct and get on his track behind him. If my nose is toward the ground by then I cut power and let God's G take over. Once I am past 90 deg to the ground, I start to add power again. I am anticipating having to go vertical so I'm building up my energy. As my nose is coming up the horizon, I'm pulling to bleed that energy to get my pipper on him. Once he is about .5 miles away, I decrease power and gun him. I may cut power too to avoid an overshoot. After that, it's more BFM...Follow him to the elbow, then pull him in and start the process again. In fact in most turning engagements with the F-16, it is alot of flying to the elbow then pulling him in.

Now if at the merge he denies me turning room, then I turn away form him at the merge and enter a one circle fight. This usually brings me into a good enough position to get on his six and start that BFM all over again.

I have better engines than him and fight well in the vertical, so I am using those advantages as much as I can.

v6,

boNes

because the TF30s would not limit fuel injection and thus trust at high AOAs like the F110s. Zone 5 would always be zone 5, not matter the AOA, which made her even better at slow turns.

Wut? I didn't know that about our F110s. Can you point me to some docs were it's described in more detail please? I assume it's modeled in HB's F-14B?

To keep it short and simple, the F-14 can maintain the same max rate as the F-16 but at a lower speed, hence the F-14's radius at max sustained rate is smaller. This is THE big thing you should take advantage of in the F-14, that you can stay inside your opponents circle whilst matching his rate, and this also holds true even more so against the F-15 and atm to a lesser extent also vs the F/A-18 as well. The F-14 can outturn them all if you keep to its max STR speed of ~.56 - .62 Mach.

Conversely the main thing you want to avoid in the F-14 is fighting at too high a speed, and don't try to match a high speed climbing turn from an F-15 or esp. an F-16. Also avoid getting into a flat or rolling scissors unless you're really proficient with your rudders - against the F/A-18 (& M2000) just avoid it altogether as they will beat you here regardless.

So to sum up: Drag them low, make them commit to the horizontal and then turn fight them at your best STR speed. And should you miss a shot and enter an overshoot, go straight up and then come back down to repeat the process.

 

I have better engines than him and fight well in the vertical, so I am using those advantages as much as I can.

 

 

v6,

boNes

Well actually you have the same engines, but anyway :P :D

Also you must mean the horizontal as the F-16 enjoys quite the climb rate advantage over the F-14 :)

Well actually you have the same engines, but anyway :P :D

 

Also you must mean the horizontal as the F-16 enjoys quite the climb rate advantage over the F-14 :)

Yeah, I had in my head the F101s not the F110s, but then again, I have two of them and he has one haha.

And to be more specific, in the vertical , I mean more in a neutral or disadvantaged position where I can come up nose high and kick the rudder over and bear down on him. Now in an offensive position, I cam get a zoom climb better than him it seems if I first gain momentum in a dive, then just before pulling up, hit the burners and yank her up and I will quickly be able to put my nose on him as he climbs into the sky. I will admit however that if he is doing a climbing turn it is pretty hard to stick with him unless I really put good use to my rudders.

v6,

boNes

Great stuff everyone! So it seems the best strategy is to get slower and maximize the Tomcat's turn rate and radius. This makes sense because the F-16 has a significant advantage in regards to flat out acceleration and rate of climb that the F-14 just cannot hang with.

.... The A btw excelled better at this, because the TF30s would not limit fuel injection and thus trust at high AOAs like the F110s. Zone 5 would always be zone 5, not matter the AOA, which made her even better at slow turns.

Had i died yesterday, i would have died an ignorant man! Looking back in retrospect, it explains so much. Thanks for that info, it all makes sense now :thumbup:

I've flown many many many guns only dogfights with AI F-16s so for what THAT's worth:

 

<snip>

To the OP.

Against an AI, two things come to mind. The second is what Boned above wrote. The second is patience. The AI will fly a perfect AoA on hardest difficulty (for a sustained rate), but won't engage in any creative maneuvering. So you have to choices. Go out of plane as mentioned above, or fly your best rate and stay inside his turn, like humming bird says. This latter approach requires some patience, as the AI is more then happy to fly circles until it runs out of gas. But you can eventually get him, as at some point, the AI will run out of altitude and try to extend. use your excess power then to saddle on his six.

Against a human driver. The best advice i can offer from my limited (less then half a year in MP) experience, is to remember you don't fly against the plane, you fly against the pilot. I know i sounds a bit patronizing but herein lies the key. All the 4th gen jets in DCS are rather closely matched right now and it the outcome will depend purely on driver actions. Our handicap as Turkey drivers is that we have our hands full if we wanna get slow and dirty. We are also large and easy to keep an eye on. But that said, practice can makeup for the first and DCS often dodgy spotting makes up for the second.

From a tactical point of view i can't offer any F-14 specific help that the others have provided, but i can try and offer some universal pointers that i believe can be of great help if properly executed:

1. Control the merge. If some kind of missiles are on your rails, this will determine 90% of your engagements. If in a gunzo, this will probably determine about 50% of the outcome or more bar any critical mistakes made during the fight. If you can't engage from a favorable starting position, then try to find yourself into one after you have merged. This means, forget about sustained turning rates. Find the best g for a starting energy state that when executed will give you the least time for weapon's firing solution or at least a nose on the target AND leave you in an energy state that you consider desirable to either extend and disengage or continue the fight.

2. Give yourself options. Or never cash in all your ships, unless that gives you the killing shot. Even then, only do it if one-on-one. In order to do this you need to know your plane well. All across the board. Practice both aerobatics and engagements against AI and human opponents. See how they fly their respective planes. Remember the above, YOU ARE FIGHTING THE MAN, NOT THE PLANE. Don't be afraid to get shot down. Make mistakes. Often deliberately. Mistakes will sometimes provide more insight then straight wins. We are flying a sim. We can afford to make mistakes. Learn through this experience, learn both what other do when things happen to them and how your reactions interact with those actions. And finally, every now and then you'll run into a server admin or a SATAL demigod. You'll get your arse shredded. Don't feel bad about it. He is better then you. No matter how good you fly your plane he will be better then you. He has the tactical experience of countless engagements. You can only hope to be close to that good if you are prepared to invest at least as much time and effort as he has.

Hope this rant helps.....cheers and have fun! In the end, it's what this is all about :thumbup:

Well actually you have the same engines, but anyway :P :D

Right? That's what i thought as well! :D

And we have more fuel then those guys. More then twice the fuel actually. And somehow we run out of gas more quickly. Either the Viper fuel flow is borked right now, or the F-14's inlet geometry and fuel system is more fuel hungry......

Also you must mean the horizontal as the F-16 enjoys quite the climb rate advantage over the F-14

Only above certain air speeds.

Also I find that if you have been flying FBW planes for a while, you may have a tendency to pull on the pole all the way to its limits in a turn, because the FBW system prevents you from going past the g limits (unless you hit the override). So, going into the Tom, you may have the habit of pulling that pole all the way back, which you will find shoots your AOA up almost immediately and outs you into a position of dealing with buffeting, wing rock, and ultimately departure.

Get in the habit of only slightly pulling back on the stick instead of yanking back on it. It takes finesse. When you have pulled back on it and the airframe is starting to buffet, that is as far as you generally want to pull. This is also when you use less aileron input and more rudder input. Heck, you can steer the plane into intentional and controlled rolls with the rudder at this point, it's amazing and part of the Tomcat's beauty.

Now the upside of "limiting" your pull and hence your G loading is that you have energy and G available if you need it. The Bug and any other FBW aircraft will say, "nope, that's your limit, no more g for you" until you complain by hitting the override and have the caution light and annoying deedle noise come on. But in the Tomcat, she will go, "Oh, you want more? OK!" and will pounce on the opportunity.

One more thing I keep in mind when doing this...have faith in your engines. You may be feeling slow in the turn at the edge of buffeting even though power is on, but then the Tomcat will catch up and suddenly start accelerating like a rocket into the turn.

v6,

boNes

And we have more fuel then those guys. More then twice the fuel actually. And somehow we run out of gas more quickly. Either the Viper fuel flow is borked right now, or the F-14's inlet geometry and fuel system is more fuel hungry......

Twice the fuel, but twice the fuel consumption (2 engines v 1) and more drag :(

To keep it short and simple, the F-14 can maintain the same max rate as the F-16 but at a lower speed, hence the F-14's radius at max sustained rate is smaller. This is THE big thing you should take advantage of in the F-14, that you can stay inside your opponents circle whilst matching his rate, and this also holds true even more so against the F-15 and atm to a lesser extent also vs the F/A-18 as well. The F-14 can outturn them all if you keep to its max STR speed of ~.56 - .62 Mach.

 

Conversely the main thing you want to avoid in the F-14 is fighting at too high a speed, and don't try to match a high speed climbing turn from an F-15 or esp. an F-16. Also avoid getting into a flat or rolling scissors unless you're really proficient with your rudders - against the F/A-18 (& M2000) just avoid it altogether as they will beat you here regardless.

 

So to sum up: Drag them low, make them commit to the horizontal and then turn fight them at your best STR speed. And should you miss a shot and enter an overshoot, go straight up and then come back down to repeat the process.

 

 

 

 

Well actually you have the same engines, but anyway :P :D

 

Also you must mean the horizontal as the F-16 enjoys quite the climb rate advantage over the F-14 :)

What sustained turn rate speeds do you aim for in a BFM config?

And how do you fly it while keeping your eye on the bandit?

How do you practice flying it? TacView?

What sustained turn rate speeds do you aim for in a BFM config?

 

And how do you fly it while keeping your eye on the bandit?

 

How do you practice flying it? TacView?

Not who you were asking but I always aim for .6 mach in a turn fight.

I "fly" with my ears to maintain AoA, only using my eyes on instruments in a rapid cross-check every few seconds.

As for getting practice, I highly recommend the guns-only zones in "Dogfight Only" servers. Dogfighting AI is a completely pointless thing to even talk about, because even on excellent 1) they suck and 2) they're boring and don't really use "tactics" at all.

Only above certain air speeds.

At most speeds the F-16 will absolutely leave the F-14 in the dust in a climb.

What sustained turn rate speeds do you aim for in a BFM config?

 

And how do you fly it while keeping your eye on the bandit?

 

How do you practice flying it? TacView?

Between .56 to .62 mach is where you should stabilize your turn. Any excess speed you have over that you should exploit for ITR until speed drops to the before mentioned ones.

In a dogfight I look up and down a lot to keep an eye on speed, AoA and the bandit. I generally don't want to exceed 17-18 units of AoA.

I train BFM with people on a DACT server where we do guns only neutral merge fights, with and without labels. With labels to first discern the precise limits of the aircraft without having to worry about losing visual, then when you know the limits and the signs to look for when you're close to them we switch to fights without labels.

At most speeds the F-16 will absolutely leave the F-14 in the dust in a climb.

Interesting.......

A hypothetical question then, standard atmospheric conditions, 10000ft, mach 0.6. 3g ascending turn. Based on the graphs you used to compare sustained turn rates, and for those same configurations, which aircraft climbs better? How about at mach 0.4? And at mach 0.7?

EDIT: a qualitative answer would suffice. No need for exact numbers.

Strange..

At the F14 Association forum an ANG F-16 pilot talked about the F110 engine F14 were a hard fight at 250-275 ias ascending spiral.

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Strange..

 

At the F14 Association forum an ANG F-16 pilot talked about the F110 engine F14 were a hard fight at 250-275 ias ascending spiral.

 

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Shh, don't tell! :smilewink: