Jump to content

Can't takeoff/land straight because no visual cues...


Nealius

Recommended Posts

Well, one major difference is the feeling in your pants. That helps you predict a lot of movement and what corrective measures to take.

 

And I'm pretty sure the torque on the Mustang was known to kill nugget pilots, though I can't remember where I read that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's been known to kill fairly experienced pilots too.

 

We had a fatal accident here in AZ a few years ago. Pilot landed a Mustang at his home airport and while we're not entirely sure if he landed long or hot or a combo of both but he tried to go around and went off the left side of the runway straight into a hangar. The aerial views from a local news chopper showed the tell-tail decreasing radius skid marks from "Torque Steer."

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/content.php

High Quality Aviation Photography For Personal Enjoyment And Editorial Use.

www.crosswindimages.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It can't be THAT hard to takeoff and land a real Spit or even a P51 as it is in DCS, can it! ...I mean if it is, then 99% of WWII pilots in training would have been killed! ......What's the REAL story with why it's so difficult in DCS?

 

In real life people can FEEL the aircraft moving (and can anticipate from the momentum) .. in a PC game you cannot feel anything.

That is the main difference.

 

This isn't other "sims" where you just dump in 50% rudder in the other direction from the torque, apply full throttle and away you go (in pretty much every aircraft).

 

It's not that hard in DCS, and the whole "99% of real pilots would have died" thing is nonsense (that for some reason keeps getting repeated).

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In real life people can FEEL the aircraft moving (and can anticipate from the momentum) .. in a PC game you cannot feel anything.

That is the main difference.

 

This isn't other "sims" where you just dump in 50% rudder in the other direction from the torque, apply full throttle and away you go (in pretty much every aircraft).

 

It's not that hard in DCS, and the whole "99% of real pilots would have died" thing is nonsense (that for some reason keeps getting repeated).

 

 

And this is why that keeps getting repeated:

 

If flight sims were not meant to be fairly accurate representations of flight then they would not be used in military flight training.

 

 

 

It is simply not "accurate" to offer a flight "sim" in which 99% of new pilots crash and burn on the runway trying to take off the first 100 times they try ----- because in real life you can go to a flying school and they'll let you take a Cesna off the ground on your introductory flight.

 

 

 

DCS needs to find a way to accurately portray learning to fly a new aircraft. DCS is not alone in this either.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not that hard in DCS, and the whole "99% of real pilots would have died" thing is nonsense (that for some reason keeps getting repeated).

 

 

I disagree.

 

I do not have the Spitfire, but I do have the P51D, TF51D, FW190 and Bf109 and in all of them, without exception, I have scraped wings, collapsed undercarriage, have added plenty of craters to the landscape and resulted in so many fireballs as to have made a significant contribution to climate change. I suspect the few, if any, who have not trashed a DCS WW2 aircraft on takeoff and/or landing are probably blessed with 2000 hrs from other flight sims before they even started in DCS.

 

I would postulate that there are a plethora of reasons that make it difficult for DCS than for real-life. Such as...

 

 

  • Monitor size (and thus lack of peripheral vision),
  • Low resolution (real vision is not 100dpi),
  • Frame-rate (low FPS doesn't help),
  • Graphic fidelity (DCS is damn good, but the real-world is still better),
  • Probably a desktop joystick, rather than a full length flight stick,
  • Pedals that are rather light (assuming even that, instead of a twist stick),
  • Probably on an office or kitchen chair, rather than a proper flight seat,
  • Unlikely to be strapped in with lateral leaning points,
  • Not necessarily force-feedback controllers either,
  • No motion sense (we do not move, nor feel the bumps or acceleration),
  • No sense of vibration from the engine or wheel roll-out,
  • Limited audio-cues,
  • Self-taught, rather than given actual instruction,
  • Being used to throttle-and-go takeoffs from other flight "sims"
  • Less patience (or are rushed to get the most out of our free-hour),
  • Distractions (children, spouse, cat, phone, etc.),
  • Fatigue (probably tired after a long day at work/school)
  • Pilot age (I for one have slower reflexes that I did when I was young),
  • Focus... when your life is really on the line, you concentrate a bit more.

 

No doubt there are more.

 

Of course, there are going to be some of us who have addressed some of those issues, but for someone who is trying to figure out why it is so difficult, then knowing this helps lessen the pain of failure.

 

:joystick:

 

 

My suggestion to fellow-struggling pilots, would be to take a look at some of the above and try and rectify them if you can. I would also suggest controlled practice setups (build your own mission with your favourite aircraft sitting on the runway with engines on), and then be systematic about figuring out where it is going wrong (take notes... write down what you did, which way you crashed, and at what stage). And practice, practice, practice.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and Phil, for someone who say DCS is "not that hard", may I remind you of this?...

 

:music_whistling:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

It is simply not "accurate" to offer a flight "sim" in which 99% of new pilots crash and burn on the runway trying to take off the first 100 times they try ----- because in real life you can go to a flying school and they'll let you take a Cesna off the ground on your introductory flight.

 

And yet... somehow... many of us are able to get off the ground, repeatedly, safely and consistently in a controlled manner.

 

The factors Dietrich outlined for you are the most common issus that make it more difficult than reality, and some are just an unfortunate bi-product of trying to replicate flying real aircraft with a 24" monitor, 15cm of plastic joystick with either none - or a vague pastiche - of the real feedback a pliot gets, and a wholly inadeqaute lack of depth perception.

 

However if at takeoff 99 you're still crashing or bending the kite, trust me, it's something you're doing wrong - you're either not aware of the mistakes your making and therefore unable to correct them or something is very amiss with your control setup.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know about comparisons with real life, but I do know that I struggled for quite a long time with the Spit take off and landing - as shown in several threads here from last year - but what I can say, is that once mastered, you never look back. It becomes second nature making successful take offs and landings. You just get a feel for it after a while, both in terms of speeds and behaviour.

Well worth persevering with.

Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) In real life you can feel the plane, as others have already said.

 

2) In real life you have proper HOTAS

 

3) In real life you see in 3D and have peripheral vision

 

4) In real life you follow procedures very, VERY carefully, you don't simply give full throttle and expect to be airborne

 

5) This being said I can take off and land straight 99% of the time in DCS, because I follow procedures: full right rudder trim, elevator 1 division nose down, throttle up to +7 boost only, when the tail is fully up you can increase to +12, and a lot of DANCING on the pedals, that is, sharp and swift kicks as soon as the plane wants to veer off.

 

6) @ Dietrich: about that video: that is NOT what dancing on the rudders means. That guy is kicking it for split seconds and like 20-30% deflection. Give it more deflection and longer. Watch real videos of Spits landing, you'll see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should have posted all my fail videos. That was one of my first where I didn't scrape a wing and managed to stay controlled on rollout. Now I'm more consistent. Recently my tail wheel has been impacting first, instead of a nice 3-point touchdown. I can't seem to find the right AoA.

 

Tailwheel landing ever so slightly first by a tiny amount is fairly normal and usual for the Spit IRL so it sounds about right. :thumbup:

Proud owner of:

PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring.

 

My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I pick references out the quarter-panel windows as mentioned before, that coupled with the slip indicator, though don't keep your head stuck in the 'pit too long; you should still be able to glance at the slip to the edge of your vision as you up throttle 'til the nose comes down. Though don't rely on the slip indicator for such things, tail dragger endorsements will have an instructor hide it, use it in conjunction with other cues.


Edited by ouPhrontis
Clarifying some points.

NATO - BF callsign: BLACKRAIN

2x X5675 hexacore CPUs for 24 cores | 72GB DDR3 ECC RAM 3 channel | GTX 1050Ti | 500GB SSD on PCIe lane | CH Products HOTAS | TrackIR5 | Win 7 64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And just because I feel like gloating, here's another decent landing:

 

 

Nice!

Interestingly, that video is an excellent example of the issue with cockpits and lighting that many have been complaining about in these forums. It is impossible to see any instrument readings in those shade conditions. I guarantee that if you tried the same scenario with DS off (if you are running release version), you would be able to see something on the instruments.

Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Reflected...yes it does. Beautiful landing - best I've seen and making it look easy. Great tip on looking at your attitude at the pre-takeoff position and replicate it on landing. Now, if I could only get your liveries to work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...