Best strategies for dealing with SAMs

So I've been learning loads recently in a-10c dcs and recently started completed missions with mostly good success. But one thing I am still struggling with is SAMs. I configure my countermeasures and set my jamming to the specific SAM type i might encounter on the mission after looking at the threats. I am also trying to identify SAMs from a distance and launch AGMs at them as soon as they come into range. I also attempt flying around them at high altitude where possible...

But I still struggle dealing with them. I know I still dont identify SAMs correctly a lot of the time. But I feel even with practice at identifying them theres still something I'm not doing right.

Just wondering how other pilots deal with this kind of threat. :)

Avoid them where possible and task SEAD flight to deal with them. If not possible, deal with them (Radar systems/IR if you know where they are), alternatively fly above their WEZ (MANPAD).

Are you after specific ways of engaging and destroying specific SAM systems?

Thanks for your input I will check out how to do that. Specific or non specific anything that you guys can share I will read and try to understand and I hope other new guys will read this thread too :) Hows about missile avoidance as well?

Thanks for your input I will check out how to do that. Specific or non specific anything that you guys can share I will read and try to understand and I hope other new guys will read this thread too :) Hows about missile avoidance as well?

All systems in DCS, barring the S-300 and the Patriot, are capable of being defeated by Mavs if you wish to conduct DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defences) flights in the A-10C. In other words, your Mavs outrange the SAM system and can easily be defeated at stand-off range. There is an exception to this and would be the Medium range systems, ie the Buk/Kub/Hawk systems, which would require you to engage with Forced Correlate tracking to obtain a kill, alternatively get real close by utilizing terrain masking or the like. If you are interested, I or others can post tracks for you to have a look at and in doing so you can get an idea of the different engagement techniques when dealing with threats.

As regards to missile avoidance, you can rely on the applicable counter-measure suite programmed for the specific threat you are facing, alternatively you can kinematically defeat the incoming missiles by manoeuvring alone, which usually involves putting the missile on your 3/9 line and keeping it there until it runs out of energy and self-destructs, usually within view. This works well with a partner, who drags the launch while the other player tags the system from behind. Then again, this is not really always advisable as it takes advantage of the A.I.'s inability to engage multiple targets at once. As times change the A.I. might get smarter and this advice will be misguided :)

Again, if interested I'm sure people will be happy to provide tracks - just holler.

Thanks for your response, DEAD strategy is what I have been attempting. I would really love to see a track of an experienced pilot dealing with SAM threats using multiple strategies. Thanks in advance!

OK, as a start, here are a couple of tracks dealing with a Tor SAM system, one easy with the SAM set to average and another with the system set to excellent.

In the easy track, I locate the SAM in the vicinity of WP1, set as SPI and slave the Maverick to the SPI. I launch at 7.5nm out and immediately manoeuvre to put the threat to my right, outside of the inner threat ring on the RWR (important):

Thereafter keep the threat in sight, knowing that the launches were out of the Tor's killing zone and watch the countdown in the HUD till missile impact. Quick, simple and easy way of dealing with the threat.

Track: Tor easy.trk

Now Tor's were able to shoot down incoming Mavs. Assuming such a capability exists, in the second track I engage and launch from 6.5nm on a Tor set to excellent. I press the engagement and draw a launch from the Tor AT 5.5nm and then launch another Mav. This is to increase my chances of a kill, assuming that the first Mav will get shot down. Problem with this engagement is that I am well within the killing zone of the Tor and am thus necessitated to use countermeasures and manoeuvring to spoof the missiles: Either/or will get you killed - do both.

Now this is obviously not the advisable way of dealing with the threat - merely one way if you do find yourself in the killing zone and you have to defeat the missile to stay alive. Important to always maintain situational awareness - keep an eye on your heading tape as it aids greatly in maintaining said SA.

Track: Tor.trk

Keep an eye on the thread - will post more of other systems as I go along.

This is worth a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak6EgzDwiGs&feature=player_embedded

Also I found this vid informative even though it relates to a fast mover. Different techniques but some applicable elements.

As stated previously, all the SHORAD units (Short Range Air Defences/Radar) can be dealt with by Mavs from stand-off range without use of Chaff and/or E.C.M. If you pick it up on your RWR, save your flares - flares are useless against a Radar threat.

Then again, an integrated defence network would in all probability be supported by IR threats, so dependant on your altitude, just keep your eyes and ears open. You should however be outside of any IR systems engagement zone when dealing with Radar threats from stand-off range. As a last resort, you can also climb to altitude (30000ft or so) and drop a JDAM on the threat - works just as well for short-range threats.

Herewith track against SA-8 Osa: Osa easy.trk

DEAD engagements against MERAD (Medium Range Air Defence) systems are a wee bit more technical - you cannot just amble up, point and shoot. You have to close to well within the SAM's WEZ and launch. As time is of the essence, you preferably also want to track well before the Mav's Centroid tracking range and you can thus rely on Forced Correlate tracking to get a 'lock' much earlier than you otherwise would have gotten.

In the track I locate the Gadfly's search radar and set it as SPI. Select the Mav, set Forced Correlate mode and track. The idea now is to get closer to the SAM whilst staying alive doing so - I preferably want to get as close as possible to the SAM prior to launch. Utilizing terrain avoidance allows me to do so. As such it would be wise to pick your battles against MERAD sites - flatland will not be as conducive to survival as hilly terrain as the track well illustrates.

Be that as it may, track, close and launch for a successful SA-11 kill: SA-11 Buk.trk

I'll attempt to post tracks later of IR missile avoidance from threats where no RWR indication/warning is received by the pilot. DEAD engagements against IR SAM systems are however the same as mentioned above: Find them and dispatch them from stand-off range. You will ALWAYS out-range said IR threats so they are easily dealt with. Avoidance is however a different story :)

 

........ Select the Mav, set Forced Correlate mode and track. The idea now is to get closer to the SAM whilst staying alive doing so - .....

All good stuff Viper....

And, if you slave the tgp to the mav, (switch tgp on one mfd, mav on the other as SOI) and maximise the slew rate (slow it right down), you can get a pretty good FC on the object from well outside the mav screen's visible range, by looking at the TGP view.

Hmm,

On second thoughts, mabe its easier, as you describe, -to slave from TGP

Hmm,

On second thoughts, mabe its easier, as you describe, -to slave from TGP

You are quite correct as it pertains to the slew rate of the Mav. The farther you are from the target, the slower the slew rate needs to be set to in order to ensure accuracy. From 20nm out, tracking with Forced Correlate can result in errors that will guarantee a miss if the slew rate is not reduced, especially considering that blast-radius damage is limited.

Ta for bringing it up - I neglected to mention it :)

Since no one has said it yet, the best way to survive against SAMs is to fly high, >22k feet AGL or so, and avoid the SAMs that can hit you at high altitude (SA-3, 6, 8, 10, 11, 15). You often won't face SAM threats like those anyway, and you will also usually see them show up on your RWR before you fly within range. Just snipe targets with PGMs from high altitude in high threat environments.

All great posts, i've been checking out the tracks that you've posted viper, really appreciate your help :) I've tried to use some of your strategies against SAMs, I find i tend to panic too much and stall my aircraft while trying to perform maneuvers :P I guess with practice I will get used to it a bit more and keep things under control. I wish I had trackIR so i could look for missile trails and perform maneuvers based on that, seems to really help with everything i've seen so far. I am looking to upgrade soon and TrackIR is definitely a must have :)

Just a small note...

Track IR will make a difference for sure. Once you get it up and running, it will make your life much easier. It is worth the price.

Great! I learned more.

Good stuff, Viper. Thanks.

Dont rely on staying high. Too many times you will still get engaged by something that can track and fire at you well beyond 17K. Trust in your maverick I always say, and the RWR to point you in the right direction.

Given your strategy failed for whatever reason and a SAM is launched at you.

Are real A-10C pilots adviced to jettison their load in that case, provided the mission is not Hollywood?

PS: Ok, adviced is the wrong word, is it standard procedure to emergency jettison the load in such a case? A fully loaded A-10C has reduces chances for evasion methinks.

Given your strategy failed for whatever reason and a SAM is launched at you.

 

Are real A-10C pilots adviced to jettison their load in that case, provided the mission is not Hollywood?

ANY pilot regardless of their aircraft type will most likely jettision any heavy A/G stores when they are enganged.

During the initial stages of air ops over Libya last year, we had several aircraft dump their drop tanks the second they had a RWR indication that there was a SAM system in the area that was trying to engage them. Even though there were in fact never actually fired upon.

But that said, in reality it varies, you only have to read up on some of the missions the F-15Es flew in the first Gulf War to see how thing go when pilots are actually faced with live SAMs. Some of the pilots dumped the drop tanks and A/G stores the second they were fired on, some evaded the first volley of missiles and then hit the jett switch and some pressed the target, got their bombs off and then evaded the threat (and some were shot down trying).

Ok, so it is in the decision of the pilot and there is no mandatory rule, he has to jettison.

I read the book "Strike Eagle: Flying the F-15E in the Gulf war" and from the same author the one about the A-10As and sure a man fired upon will not always act as he is supposed to. Just wondered what the standard training procedure is. I understand there is no standard procedure and the pilot has the freedom of choice. In the end he might be blamed for either one. ;)

Indeed, no mandatory rule saying they must hit the jett, but it's certainly something that's "stongly recommended" if they have to defend against a threat.