Will there ever be a SA342sim? - Page 10 - ED Forums
 


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Old 06-17-2019, 06:50 PM   #91
xvii-Dietrich
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Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
One pilot says it's good.
One pilot says it's bad.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.
So it seems.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. {...}
Thanks for that.

It will be really good if everyone (esp. real-life Gazelle pilots, if any) could post what controllers they are using, their axis-tuning/curves, and what they think of that configuration in the context of the Gazelle.

Some of us have no idea what a real Gazelle should feel like to fly, but we would certainly prefer to get something a bit more true-to-life (or avoid something that is an "absolute mess") when it is time for the next controller upgrade. Or alternatively, we would like to tweak their axis-curves to make it a bit more authentic. Of course, I know that we'll never get to being real (short of being rich/lucky enough to get to experience a Gazelle in real life), but I am already really enjoying this module and anything to make it even better would be greatly appreciated.





PS: I am not a real-life pilot, but I find the Gazelle believable. My controllers/settings: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...92&postcount=5
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:36 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
Well based on my own experiences with RL vs Simulated flight cross training... the controls you use definitely do make a drastic difference in 'feel'. A lifetime of using short sticks and poor quality controls resulted in a... ummm... ''interesting experience punctuated with creative profanity'' when I first took to the skies and discovered the differences in control. My current setup is a full length, low mounted VKB stick that feels a LOT like the stick in the aircraft I fly. One is good for training, the other caused a ''Coming to Jesus'' moment.

I can only assume the transition is equally jarring when you pass from a real aircraft to what is usually a short desktop mounted stick (most people won't build pits), and x10 for helicopters when without extremely expensive custom helisim equipment what you're using feels exactly NOTHING like the real thing.
Of course the "feeling" depends on the equipment and the FM. But that is not the real problem with this module.

If you have RL experience with Main- and Tail-rotor Helicopters, then you know what happens with the cyclic-stick when you go to hover, and then when you accelerate to cruising speed.
You have to counter certain effects. E.g. if the cyclic-stick has the same position during fast forward flight as it has on ground at mechanical center, then your FM does not simulate a helicopter with main- and tail-rotor. No SAS counters that. Even fly-by wire Helicopters don't do that for you. That is one of the current Gazelle's FM problems.

But again, PC works on a new FM. Let's see what they come up with.

Fox
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
I can only assume the transition is equally jarring when you pass from a real aircraft to what is usually a short desktop mounted stick (most people won't build pits), and x10 for helicopters when without extremely expensive custom helisim equipment what you're using feels exactly NOTHING like the real thing.
This is precisely my point. I don't fly helos or fancy jet fighters but I know using the warthog is nothing like any real aircraft stick I've used, never mind the actual feedback you get from a real stick (in my case).

I also had a stupid hard time flying the Gaz and other helos until very helpful folks here told me how to correctly setup the warthog for it. Now I have much easier time flying helos where before I was all over the place. And I have no comment on if thats "realistic" or not, just that helos are much easier to control with those settings.

And I'll try to provide a bit of constructive criticism. If I were a new "sim" pilot coming here from flying the real thing I'd think long and hard about what exact issues in the FM might be related to the craptastic controls most people have versus other parts of the FM that seem unrealistic. Because I think sometimes folks might be conflating the two.

Anyhow, I've never flown a helicopter so my comments on any helo FM are worthless!
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Old 06-17-2019, 09:40 PM   #94
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For future reference, btw, I understand the cyclic does not self center on a helo. With that in mind, with something like a VKB + extension, you could remove the springs, tighten the clutches up to hold it (or at least come close) and you would probably have something similarish to a helo cyclic. Failing that, simply remove the springs. It's imperfect, but still closer than a traditional stick arrangement.

@iFoxRomeo
I fly fixed wing, not helo, so no I don't know That said, the majority of pc controls in no way function like a cyclic, so I would not be the least bit surprised if they ''feel different'' or require different inputs. It's NOT a cyclic, in any way, however PC cyclics and collectives are available, which would probably help a lot with that.

That said, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the Gazelle, merely that feelings are subjective and the quality of the controls people use vary widely from ''like the real thing'' to ''toy imitations'' to ''completely unsuitable'' with entirely predictable results.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:49 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
For future reference, btw, I understand the cyclic does not self center on a helo. With that in mind, with something like a VKB + extension, you could remove the springs, tighten the clutches up to hold it (or at least come close) and you would probably have something similarish to a helo cyclic. Failing that, simply remove the springs. It's imperfect, but still closer than a traditional stick arrangement.

@iFoxRomeo
I fly fixed wing, not helo, so no I don't know That said, the majority of pc controls in no way function like a cyclic, so I would not be the least bit surprised if they ''feel different'' or require different inputs. It's NOT a cyclic, in any way, however PC cyclics and collectives are available, which would probably help a lot with that.

That said, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the Gazelle, merely that feelings are subjective and the quality of the controls people use vary widely from ''like the real thing'' to ''toy imitations'' to ''completely unsuitable'' with entirely predictable results.
Once again: The problem is NOT the feeling. Even full motion helicopter simulators don't feel like their real counterparts, despite having 1:1 copies of their controls.

The PC Gazelle does not have a plausible Helicopter Flight Modeling. That is the problem.
I tell you that this FM doesn't replicate a authentic Helicopter. It doesn't matter what type of controls you are using. It is always wrong.

Remove the centering springs from a Warthog Joystick, an you have a wonderfully suitable Cyclic Stick for a Helicopter simulation. But without Autopilot and force trim functionality.

Fox
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:09 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhukov032186 View Post
One pilot says it's good.
One pilot says it's bad.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why subjective feelings are useless about these things, or the two pilots would agree.
Yep although I'll defer to the pilot with 2000hrs over my piddly 12hrs in the Gazelle. I use the Warthog on a long extension to achieve a similar feel to the real aircraft. It'd be nice to have the proper collective and pedals. And yes I am giving latitude to the developer with reference to sim capabilities.
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Old 06-19-2019, 02:11 PM   #97
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Ok, i have a question for the pilots here. How would you describe controls in the real gazelle?
I try to describe what's going on on my side as best as i can.


1. Nevada - Cold Start
2. without startup, i move the joystick to all extends and i can see the blades reacting accordingly 1:1, also in the cockpit - the cyclic stick moves 1:1
3. after startup, in midair this changes completely:
Try to imagine a 2 meter broomstick, rammed into solid ground, just about 30 cm are still visible. it's now sitting pretty tight, you can't move it in any direction. This is how i'm flying now (my FFB stick, a G940, reflects trim forces very well in all other modules of DCS) basically i just press a little against my stick in a direction - without moving it(!) - and the gazelle starts going into a continuous roll in that direction. Compared to the 1:1, x and y axis extend test before starting up, my true input now must be something like only 1-3% of the same range. The ingame cockpit cyclic also doesn't move. It feels like that i'm just pressing 4 buttons, up/down, left/right.

Is that realistic for this particular heli?


As a reminder, everything is setup perfectly, all other modules are working perfectly fine with inputs (for helicopters and planes) and i never have to mess with input curvatures (stick has hall sensors).

Last edited by Alec Delorean; 06-19-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 02:41 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Delorean View Post
Ok, i have a question for the pilots here. How would you describe controls in the real gazelle?
I try to describe what's going on on my side as best as i can.

....

This is how i'm flying now (my FFB stick, a G940, reflects trim forces very well in all other modules of DCS) basically i just press a little against my stick in a direction - without moving it(!) - and it starts going into a continuous roll in that correction. I Compared to the 1:1, x and y axis extend test before starting up, my true input now must be something like only 1-3% of the same range. The ingame cockpit cyclic also doesn't move. It feels like that i'm just pressing 4 buttons, up/down, left/right

...

As a reminder, everything is setup perfectly, all other modules are working perfectly fine with inputs (for helicopters and planes) and i never have to mess with input curvatures (stick has hall sensors).
It is a know fact that the force feedback support for the Gazelle is bugged. Right now you will get strange behaviour when the ffb option is enabled. The feature will get another look at in the planned updates. If it makes the list of fixes remains to be seen. We want to be transparent on that. We know it’s not what you want to hear but you’ll have to disable FFB from the settings/misc menu. This goes for everyone wether you have an FFB enabled stick or not.


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Old 06-19-2019, 03:23 PM   #99
Alec Delorean
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Just tried disabling FFB, didn't help a bit. After startup the "invisible" input of the stick is x100 of what it was before startup. Guys, please make a hotfix! This module is out for years now...
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:47 AM   #100
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Any updates on the FM rework ?
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