PAL mode with AIM-7?

The AIM-7M requires a PD lock to guide, but PAL mode locks in pulse mode. Or does it change when you have an AIM-7 selected? Just curious about the behavior of PAL mode when AIM-7 is selected before PAL is.

The Sparrows launched by the F-14 usally use CW illumination by a dedicated radar antenna. PD guidance needs to be specifically selected by the RIO: http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/weapons.html#normal-mode

Oh wow, so by default you have to use PSTT? Is that how I'm understanding it?

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Oh wow, so by default you have to use PSTT? Is that how I'm understanding it?

 

 

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No, it doesn't matter if you use PSTT or PDSTT. As long as the MSL OPTIONS switch is set to NORM, the Sparrow will be guided by Continious Wave Illumination. Only if the switch is set to SP PD the Sparrow will be guided by Pulse Doppler AFAIK.

I'll recommend to take a look at this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=240312

No, it doesn't matter if you use PSTT or PDSTT. As long as the MSL OPTIONS switch is set to NORM, the Sparrow will be guided by Continious Wave Illumination. Only if the switch is set to SP PD the Sparrow will be guided by Pulse Doppler AFAIK.

 

I'll recommend to take a look at this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=240312

Ah okay. That’s what I thought. Thanks.

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Thanks Quigon, and that makes complete sense.... but...

Then why can bandits notch / beam an AIM-7M fired from a Tomcat so easily? Shouldn't it be the most notch resistant thing in the game when you've locked them via PAL? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the notch filter was a component of pulse doplar signal processing.

I get that ground clutter should be a problem, but damn, all a bandit has to do is bank hard and the missile drops lock as soon as it near 90 degrees, no matter the range, or even if you're underneath them... The AIM-7 is so bad it's not even worth carrying on the tomcat.... and that's super disappointing, since it really was a pretty effective missile IRL (looking at you ED... fix your missile guidance and MP desync).

Hmm. I’m not sure about that.

All I know from my own observation is PAL works pretty good when in close quarters. Beyond that just P-STT is the way to go for the sparrows. Every time I stay in PD-STT I lose lock, especially just after missile launch.

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Theres a difference between the guidance emitter which is emitting CW and the mode the radar is using to track the target. the CW emitter is essentially boresighted to the radars antenna, so where the antenna is pointed is where it illuminates. If you break the radars lock thru a notch, it will no longer be pointing at the target, thus the sparrow will not guide.

Thats real world, no idea if its meched that specifically in DCS or if it just magically guides due to radar lock. Either way the effect is correct.

Theres a difference between the guidance horn which is emitting CW and the mode the radar is using to track the target. the CW horn is essentially boresighted to the radars antenna, so where the antenna is pointed is where it illuminates. If you break the radars lock thru a notch, it will no longer be pointing at the target, thus the sparrow will not guide.

That's exactly what I'm saying. My radar is not breaking lock, the AIM-7 just stops guiding... which is kind of silly and very unrealistic when it's a CW pulse lock from below the bandit (no ground clutter).

(I'll post some tracks and tacviews to show what i mean)

What I think is really going on is that ED's missile guidance code is so bad or unrealistic that the AIM-7 is basically just an AMRAAM with horrible notch resistance that stops guiding if you break lock... so basically none or very little of the real physics behind the AWG-9 are implemented currently both for the AIM-54 guidance and the AIM-7. This would explain why they had issues with AIM-7's guiding themselves when STT locks were broken in the past... and oh by the way, R-27's and R-33s have had that issue as well. I sincerely hope that ED does a serious pass on their missile guidance and multiplayer sync code after the push to release the 16 dies down a bit... because if you really get into air-to-air fighting in DCS, you'll find BVR extremely lacking. It's probably the best there is, don't get me wrong... but that doesn't mean it's good. And any debate we have or discussion about real physics and real tactics is made mute by the fact that guidance logic and code is not following similar rules... or coded to at least appear to follow them.

Oh I'm very familiar with CM and notching affecting the missiles instead of host radar in DCS, by your post earlier it seemed like you were saying the opposite, thats all.

Slightly off topic but wasn’t it determined in an earlier thread that the AIM-7M cannot home on CW at all?

Slightly off topic but wasn’t it determined in an earlier thread that the AIM-7M cannot home on CW at all?

That was discussed in this thread (and was the original topic actually, so not off topic at all because PAL = CW pulse locks), and determined that CW can guide the AIM-7M, based on HB's responses and their documentation (see earlier posts in the thread).

Proof that coffee is not a substitute for sleep... Anyway, good info, thanks!

Thanks Quigon, and that makes complete sense.... but...

 

Then why can bandits notch / beam an AIM-7M fired from a Tomcat so easily? Shouldn't it be the most notch resistant thing in the game when you've locked them via PAL? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the notch filter was a component of pulse doplar signal processing.

 

I get that ground clutter should be a problem, but damn, all a bandit has to do is bank hard and the missile drops lock as soon as it near 90 degrees, no matter the range, or even if you're underneath them... The AIM-7 is so bad it's not even worth carrying on the tomcat.... and that's super disappointing, since it really was a pretty effective missile IRL (looking at you ED... fix your missile guidance and MP desync).

Well, CW itself is using the doppler effect too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-wave_radar