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Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base


Mozart

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Any chance the solder instructions for the hardware fix could be put up here? I started a trouble ticket to send my base back, but haven't heard from them.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing if an electronics specialist nearby could do the fix.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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Any chance the solder instructions for the hardware fix could be put up here? I started a trouble ticket to send my base back, but haven't heard from them.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing if an electronics specialist nearby could do the fix.

 

When did you buy yours? It would void your warranty I guess, that's the only consideration.

I sent them mine which cost $80ish from US. They applied the fix and sent it back at their cost.

EDIT: If you have access to a business shipping account with FedEX or similar, would probably be a lot cheaper.

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I bought mine in April, before they changed them. I’ve just been putting off sending it back.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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  • 2 weeks later...

I found the fix for the the DCS connection issue with CLS2SIM.

 

Make sure you rerun this program:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Brunner Elektronik AG\CLS2Sim\Simulator plugin installers\DCS World plugin installer.exe

 

It will by default install in the plugin in:

C:\Users\<user>\Saved Games\DCS\Scripts

 

If you're using the OpenBeta, you'll have to copy the files yourself to the OpenBeta folder. Also, don't let it overwrite your Export.lua before you make a backup.

 

Once this is done, open DCS and and fly. The connection seems to be active only during flight.


Edited by tensa_yun
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  • 2 weeks later...

FYI - The latest DCS update breaks the Brunner plugin and potentially some other plugins installed depending on load order (for me it broke SRS).

 

LoGetAngularVelocity returns nil sometimes, so just check for that and give it { 'x' = 0, 'y' = 0, 'z' = 0 } instead.

 

PM me if you need the lua file.

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Good guys. I also ordered this bruner. I’ll come soon. I chew in Kiev. This is the former USSR). What do I need to start this device? I understand that you need to download it? Only ge understood where and what). Help me with what you can. Judging from your comments above, you somehow made this miracle of technology work in DCS). Help me guys.

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Please tell me how do I need to register somewhere on the Bruner site? So what? I have no idea what to do. Any information will be useful to me! Sorry for my English, I am writing through Google translator. I do not speak English to regret. Guys help me.

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It’s compatible with a win 10. Can’t say I’ve used it with the new Beta.

 

Lovcar, you have to go to Brunner’s software page and register to get a login access. Here’s The link: https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/software-download-page-2/

 

You need to then download CLS2 software to use with the CLS-E.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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Buffet at stall and high g aye. Ground shake. Gun fire rumble not present. Progressive stick forces I haven't been able to make it work. In the brunner software you are supposed to make stick forces stiffer with increased velocity. But I haven't been able to make it work. Or it does work but I'm not sensing it.

 

Have no clue about the hornet. I don't own that module. You can create individual.profiles with each their own spring force.and progressive force in brunner software but if you can get the correct hornet values in I don't know. It can put our max.force of 4NM.

 

The Ffb in the f-14 and p-51d are well done though. I can really Fly at the edge of the flight models envelope without plane losing control.

 

I own the original monfoost50 gimbal. The brunner is better than that. Return to center can be programmed so it won't flop around when let go. Just dial in a bit of hydraulics and it snap to center without oscillating. You can change "spring" strength and "cam" profile with the change of a profile instead of physically opening it and exchanging springs or cams. So in my opinion the gimbal is far superior at those in regards to the spring/cam gimbal of vkb and virpil.

I have different profiles for fixed plane, helos and space games.

Add Ffb and hardware trimming to that as well.

 

Thanks for the answer kingpanda, apologies for the delayed reply - tbnh i forgot about this thread.

 

Just the gimbal advantage is intriguing, particularly it can apparently go from a helicopter feel to a jet by just changing profiles? I noticed on their website there is a CSL-P for helo/cyclic simulation (also looks like they have collective and joystick as separate items). They're large and site says level D certified, thus $$$, so I'm assuming we are all talking about the CLS-E? Still, the E can can simulate a cyclic, hydraulic actuated beast with no ailerons and some quirky habits, and a modern FBW jet just by loading a profile? The entire feel, breakout and centering forces, progressivity... everything has changed? Do you have an adjustable extension or something?

 

That's really quite amazing but also unfortunate it is does not provide feedback simulating the Hornet FCS. Natural stick feedback, such as in a regular control rod system, is necessary to fly the aircraft well, as you point out. I fly competitively IRL where we are judged on precision, so many cues are lost - from simple control pressure increase as speed increases, to feeling the tail break when wing turbulence covers the rudder at high AoA. I don't have near the rotary time as fixed wing but a cyclic feels so different, I"m still amazed that one gimbal can do both, but is the feedback realistic to a helo? Pretty remarkable if true. I did not start flying sims until about 1.5 years ago recreationally, but have trained in level D sims. tbh those were not always what I would call "better" in term so how precisely I could fly, though there were feedback effects.

 

The loss of the seat of pants sensor with sims I've wondered if it would be helped by systems like the Hornet's CAS. For someone capable of manufacturing a base like that it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to program. I don't think it's necessary to get into pitch coupling and roll coupling. If you don't go to deep into the weeds its pretty simple. Give me a push at 22 AoA I've got to push through. When dirty go full AoA feedback. Maybe lighten the stick up a bit from the realistic 4lb/G, its a sim and the adrenaline isn't there, or make it adjustable. But definitely above 22 AoA at high G full feedback. THere's literally only three variables - AoA and G, and flaps auto or half/full - the rest is in the stick.

 

Again forgive my ignorance but what's one of these cost? Assuming its not $5k else I admire ya'll dedication... but its got to be at least $1500. Also grips - looks like virpil/TM but no VKB?

just a dude who probably doesn't know what he's talking about

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I don't own the Brunner (yet), but I can answer some of those questions.

 

Because the base is force feedback, it can emulate any kind of gimbal. The software allows you to set things like how fast the force ramps up as you move away from the center point, and has built-in support for both force trim in helicopters as well as trimming in fixed wing. This built-in support (called hardware trim) is separate from the sim, so it won't reflect the state of the sim. This usually isn't a problem though, as DCS only changes the center point of the force and won't move your stick outside of you doing it manually (for example, an autopilot moving the stick for you). This means that when you first load into an aircraft, all you have to do is press the hardware trim reset button once and you're good to go. I believe the base uses direct drive motors, so it avoids the cogging feeling like that on the Logitech G940 and Microsoft FFB2.

 

You can use extensions, though it will sag if you move it too far off-center due to its weight. It fares a lot better with the lighter sticks and can be used with the Virpil and RealSimulator grips, but not with the VKB because it uses a different mount. I believe if you purchase one nowadays, it will support the Virpil CM2 stick out of the box (with all buttons and even lever axis working), but previous versions purchased before mid-2019 will need modifying a resistor to support the CM2.

 

Don't expect too much out of the FFB forces. Brunner is not reading the FFB data from the sim itself, but rather getting exported data from the sim itself and processing that data. It will do ground rumble when taxiing and the stick forces getting stronger as airspeed increases, but not much else. It won't have the kind of nuance that you'd get in real life, at least not in DCS. If you only fly fixed wing, I'd say you're probably better off just getting a spring-based joystick, and if you only fly helicopters, you'll probably enjoy the VKB Gunfighter and its dry clutches. The Brunner only becomes an option if you want to have different forces between different aircraft (for example a lighter more linear feel for the F-16 and a heavier feel for the A-10C), or if you fly a mix of helicopters and fixed wing and want to use one joystick without having to reconfigure the hardware in between, but you're paying a lot of money for that convenience.

 

The force on the stick is 4Nm. Without hands-on experience I can't tell you what this feels like, but if you're looking for that "need two hands to pull it back" kind of force, this isn't going to meet that goal. However, it's nothing to scoff at; people use the Microsoft FFB2 which reportedly has 0.4Nm of force and need to turn that down sometimes, so 4Nm should be decent. Keep in mind though that 4Nm is the max force, but the stick can't sustain that for long without the motors overheating (and I believe there's overheat protection).

 

Price-wise, you can check for yourself here:

 

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-joystick/

 

but shipped to the US it comes out to 1354 EUR, or 1490 USD. The CLS-P is in another league; the peak force is 100Nm and it's sold by request only. I recall reading somewhere that it's in the high 4 figures to low 5 figures.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ranma13 Is correct in a lot of this stuff. but the Cls-e is not a direct to drive. its belt driven but you dont notice that. The Cls-p is direct to drive if im not mistaken.

 

 

Flying the P-51 and f-14 however is a joy to fly. it also does stall buffeting. You can really feel when you have to ease of the controls to not buffet. THe F-14 is formidably well done but that has been due to the very good work of the heatblur team. The flaming cliffs modules feel quite rudimentary. its there but not as sophisticated. The hardware trims are awsome and fully programable. I can even trim planes which dont have trim. But still I am not happy withe the extension i have. 12 cm extension from virpil but the stick is too far from me still. So i have ordered the 200mm s curve extension from virpil and will have to see if it holds up FFB wise.

 

 

 

If you really want alot of lbs to throw your weight onto then you would be better of with the P variant. you could even software limit the axis with that device. with the E not so much. any limit you put into the software can easily be pushed through. not even noticing a bump if you are already at 3nm at the threshold. For me its enough. hopefully witht the s curve as well. with the extensions that i have now i dont even utilize all the force at the axis limits so I have some spare force I hope to use for the longer and a-symetrical extension.

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Thanks for clarifying, kingpinda. I had a VKB MCG Pro with the curved extension and found that with a racing chair, I still couldn't get it close enough. The problem is that the racing chair doesn't have the center cut-out for the ejection handle, so I either had to raise the curved portion of the extension above the chair, which made the joystick too high, or I had to position it further away from me so that I can pull the stick all the way back without touching my chair. It looks like the Virpil extension copies the shape of the VKB one, so it's something to be aware of.

 

This eBay auction has a gooseneck style that I think would work great:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINIUM-EXTENSIONS-FOR-THRUSTMASTER-WARTHOG-COUGAR-H-O-T-A-S-JOYSTICKS/292123030904?hash=item4403e3b578:m:mKF38ZRTj44L6rogvJVfpQg

 

s-l500.jpg

 

but it's quite expensive for what it does and I haven't decided if I want to pick one up yet.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello everyone! Im still about to order CLS-E joystick. Dont you have any info when the brunner software is going to get a support of standart windows joystick force feedback driver. Most of the time Im flying piston engine A/C in IL2 and it does support FF joysticks providing data of the aerodynamic center and a force on each axis, and I wish brunner could utilize it

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  • 2 weeks later...
This makes me sad. I would totally buy this to play IL2 and DCS but not without proper directX support. Maybe we can all pitch in to hire a programmer..

 

If you haven’t dropped a line to brunner it might be worth while to just let them know you would make a purchase if they supported DCS They have ever so slowly moved their position from no support to in the future we will.

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If you haven’t dropped a line to brunner it might be worth while to just let them know you would make a purchase if they supported DCS They have ever so slowly moved their position from no support to in the future we will.

 

I have most definitely let them know. I'm considering buying one anyways, I'm a little disappointed in my Virpil CM2

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  • 1 month later...

KBEDaEf

Thanks for clarifying, kingpinda. I had a VKB MCG Pro with the curved extension and found that with a racing chair, I still couldn't get it close enough. The problem is that the racing chair doesn't have the center cut-out for the ejection handle, so I either had to raise the curved portion of the extension above the chair, which made the joystick too high, or I had to position it further away from me so that I can pull the stick all the way back without touching my chair. It looks like the Virpil extension copies the shape of the VKB one, so it's something to be aware of.

 

This eBay auction has a gooseneck style that I think would work great:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINIUM-EXTENSIONS-FOR-THRUSTMASTER-WARTHOG-COUGAR-H-O-T-A-S-JOYSTICKS/292123030904?hash=item4403e3b578:m:mKF38ZRTj44L6rogvJVfpQg

 

s-l500.jpg

 

but it's quite expensive for what it does and I haven't decided if I want to pick one up yet.

 

The real warthog stick is more a flattened out S shape (the throttle levers are similar too) rather than a gooseneck. I’m thinking of getting into welding and making my own this summer (if the lockdown ever ends... like we have been sent to our bedrooms because Gaia isn’t happy about global warming and pollution lol).

 

This is a good shot of the stick... it also shows the Warthog’s manual reversion switch (the yellow lever behind the stick).

 

 

07RNOE9_d.jpg?maxwidth=1024&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

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