Make a L-39C free, with a small change?

I have had this idea bouncing in my head for a while, as I have been trying to get rational reason for myself to pull a trigger for DCS: L-39 Albatros. Here is my little background (in cursive, skip if you wish)

Here is summary about the idea:

1) The whole module is not free, you don't get to fly alone!

2) Only the front seat of the L-39C (not ZA!) is free (in hence as "open" to be seated without owning the module), rear instructor seat is only available from paid module.

3) To get that front seat, a someone with a paid module ($49,99) needs to be sitting in the rear seat first.

4) That someone needs to "open" that front seat (make it available in server) and accept the player to sit in it.

5) If the paid module owner at back seat disconnects/switch aircraft, then free seat gets locked and free seater becomes only observer until aircraft crashes or even gets kicked to lobby.

6) The real module instructor/student features applies. The instructor can override the student controls etc.

This idea is to make this: http://www.incredible-adventures.com/aces-high3.html possible in virtual reality!

(Just found that on google, not purpose to advertise anything or anyone, but just check out that what they do!)

I purchased the DCS: Hawk T.1A on first weeks. Didn't really know why, but wanted to support the developers. Maybe because it was still on -20% or so because being still a SFM. I planned to buy the PFM model once it came out as upgrade.

Only to find out couple weeks later that developers and ED was discussing that they will release the PFM version as free for some PR reasons or something (don't know), so I was happy that I got Hawk T.1A PFM version for free.

I have tried to fly that bird, nice to operate etc, but haven't touched it for months, I don't even know does it have the PFM version out yet or not! But when I did fly it, I did feel it had SFM, just some "gut feeling".

With that module what annoyed me most, was that it was like a flying brick, a sub-sonic aircraft that didn't feel to turn or gain speed at all. I wanted to get smoke pods for it so I could see my traces on air and get smoke to any training enemy I gave to AI to get a grip how the Hawk was flying, but didn't find out how to do it for enemies and get them to keep them enabled, and then didn't get time

Now the L-39C has been released, I am again having finger on the purchase option for 43€. Now when the same package contains C and ZA versions (before price is bumbed by 10€) I am almost ready to do it.....

But then I ask "Why?".

What is the reason to own a trainer aircraft, in a computer simulator?

- It is very logical thing if you own one in reality and you want to spend some times simulation instead flying a real thing and burning money.

- It is as well logical thing if you are huge fan for that specific aircraft and just want to fly it.

- It is semi-logical to be a huge DCS fan and want to support the ED by money (not really, you would then just buy those licenses and give them free to others etc).

But a first dual-seat trainer for computer simulator? Like if you want to learn to fly, it is already possible to do with Su-25T or TF-51. You will crash a lot, but you will eventually learn to fly. You get the same possibilities with missiles, cannons, rockets, bombs etc.

But but but.... You do that alone! And you do that with a buddy over an teamspeak or something! And you repeat and repeat the things until you learn!

Well, I the idea that has been bouncing inside my skull, is to make the L-39C as free module for everyone!

Yes, you read it right. A free!

Free just like Su-25T or TF-51!

And now you come to say I am crazy.

But did I say that there wouldn't be any changes?

I would like to know what does other thing, IF the L-39C would be free, and L-39ZA be paid module! Yes, Free AND Paid!

So what is the catch?

The free L-39C would be available to anyone to download!

It would be totally functional aircraft, but not so much alone!

It would mean that if you want to use this free L-39C, you need to have a flight instructor who happens to be an owner of L-39ZA!

This would allow L-39ZA owners to give a student seat to any wanted virtual pilot and let them fly the aircraft as students would.

This would mean that the paid module owner has the controls of the real back seat, override the controls, simulate the malfunctions etc.

That would allow a paid customers to invite their friends, unknown people etc to try DCS in a famous trainer aircraft! And do light attacks with them!

A new pilots could fly and experience a true twin-seat aircraft, know when they are doing mistakes as instructor can suddenly disable the controls and recover the aircraft etc.

And this same thing could very well apply to NTTR and Red Flag as well! Make them available for free L-39C owners, so people can join to DCS community, fly with paid customers with L-39C and if they start liking it, get the L-39ZA or other modules to get to fly alone!

IT would definitely bring some more virtual pilots because they can fly with their friends, who have no idea of anything, and learn thing or two. Get their hands dirty trying to shoot things down or so, while the paid, usually more experienced is on backseat.

Now, I would call that a BEST REASON to own a L-39ZA and have a TRAINER aircraft in a DCS. It would bring some new pilots to virtual air shows as they could seat in front capable to do anything while people fly and train. Just to see and feel NTTR, L-39C etc.

So to sum things up :book::

1) You get download the L-39C version.

2) You can't get it anywhere alone as it is inoperable, and you can't sit on back seat.

(The other idea that I had, what I am not so sure, was that what if the L-39C is free, you could fly it alone but not attach any weapons, so it would work only plain trainer aircraft or fly virtual acrobatics etc. But that just feels little "off". As then the paid L-39ZA would include a L-39C version that gives you the weapons and so on. I like the idea that you get free front seat and controls only when someone is at the backseat on paid module).

Edit: Add a youtube link to 2017 interview question:

https://youtu.be/JhUSSM4a7BU?t=1493

Ehh... no.

I see your points, but I don't agree. I think it would cause major irritations for new players. They see the plane, hop in, and nothing is working.

IMO, the detail in the flight model and systems modeling is worth the money.

Plus, it has wheel-brake steering that's constantly trying to kill you, which is fun too. =P

Ehh... no.

I see your points, but I don't agree. I think it would cause major irritations for new players. They see the plane, hop in, and nothing is working.

Nothing is working when there is big text front of their monitor "Wait to get second pilot in"? :doh:

Actually it would be more like that you don't even get the aircraft added in mission editor or anything to anywhere.

You would be only able to join a server, select the "L-39C Trainer" aircraft/position and then you get to sit in cockpit.

So the PAID user has been required to position the aircraft there and then sit inside waiting or otherwise locked to position to them, so they can be waiting their friends on server to arrive there without some random guys jumping if waiting just the specific one. (meaning the flight instructor pilot can lock the aircraft and accept wanted requests).

I find it a good idea!

so you're saying ED should use the L-39 as a marketing tool - a loss-leader so to speak

and, ED would be trusting "the community" to cooperate in their marketing efforts to improve the reach and user-base of DCS

the same people that participate on this forum who get along so well and have such wonderful thought out ideas and are so angelically polite and mature and unbiased

??

does anybody else see any reasons why ED would maybe pass on this plan?

It's an idea and I've kicked it around myself some. I think a better idea might be making door gunners on the UH-1 and the RIO on the upcoming F-14 free. That could solve a future multiplayer problem (lack of non-pilot crew, it will be a problem, I guarantee it) while also providing a new hook for DCS. This setup does have precedent btw. RoF has always allowed everyone to take gunner seats regardless of whether or not they owned that particular aircraft. It has some issues with trolling, thus locking/kicking seats is critically important, but it does draw new players in who might otherwise not give the game much of a look. For my part, I got a few people from other games into RoF by having them gun for me.

It's an idea and I've kicked it around myself some. I think a better idea might be making door gunners on the UH-1 and the RIO on the upcoming F-14 free.

I agree as well on that as I was about to post that to other subforums (but didn't want to spam this all over). UH-1H should offer free door gunners.

It is otherwise just a stupid (IMHO) that it would require a 4 players with paid modules to operate UH-1H!

Pilot

Co-Pilot

Door Gunner Left

Door Gunner Right

So who would buy a UH-1H module to be a door gunner, in a flight simulator?

Same thing with Mi-8MTv2, that the flight engineer and door gunners should be free positions so you can get those there. They can't fly the aircrafts, so what is the harm?

That could solve a future multiplayer problem (lack of non-pilot crew, it will be a problem, I guarantee it) while also providing a new hook for DCS. This setup does have precedent btw. RoF has always allowed everyone to take gunner seats regardless of whether or not they owned that particular aircraft. It has some issues with trolling, thus locking/kicking seats is critically important, but it does draw new players in who might otherwise not give the game much of a look. For my part, I got a few people from other games into RoF by having them gun for me.

I agree on that as well. Because I think there are more willing players to play a secondary position, but still not willing to buy a module just for that. Like you have a friend who is serious about flight simulators, but you are little more "naeh" but still open minded and interested.

So, instead avid friend trying to overtalk you to spend $40-50 to have couple hours risky playtime, you can just download things and try out. Anyways you don't do anything alone without paying the modules, but you get to DCS. And you could actually start enjoying from doing the secondary tasks, just like the door gunners works or even transporting stuff by guiding pilots where the hook is etc.

It could attract a lot of new players who will eventually buy some of the modules as they want to get then deeper. Or at least it will get more players for the secondary positions instead flying.

And giving free a L-39C as is, would not do any harm as no one could not do anything alone with it! And if you have two avid virtual pilots, why would both want to sit down in same aircraft and fly around instead doing it on separated aircrafts then? So the L-39 is already little "off from boresight" in my humble opinion....

Like I have The F-86 module. Never have started it since I picked it up from the sale for $8.99. And here I was about to buy a L-39 package. And I spotted the thread about questioning which one to take.

And the most opinions in that thread were that F-86 was more worth for money as you get the air to air missiles, bombs, rockets, better performing aircraft etc. All from a older aircraft!

So the real only difference is that L-39 is a dual-seater, but the flight instructor doesn't really do anything than flip the hood or simulate (in a simulator) some malfunctions.

Sure those who are crazy about L-39 will buy it, but how about extending its purpose for others?

A helicopter pilot that wants to learn to fly an aircraft?

A someone asking help about doing correct landings or so? So instead replies, tracks etc, you can just hint them to pop-up at given time to specific server and check out their flight and correct if needed. Whoah, instant real time community helping!

Same thing comes to be on the Combined Arms module, if a single vehicle requires 3-4 personnel, should everyone have a own module bought? If a platoon requires 3-4 vehicles, should everyone have a human player bought the module?

Some things just could start to be made free, as to get more players to the community, instead trying to keep everything small and tight as "this is serious simulator, we don't want noobs here!".

The F-14 RIO position is little special as that is fairly demanding seat what I have understood. So it is more like a co-pilot in UH-1H or Mi-8MTv2 than just a "door gunner".

But little bit same thing is with example then cargo aircrafts. I think some fairly good modeling made for free would get civilian aircraft pilots from MS FSX or X-Plane to jump now and then to DCS to fly C-130 or similar. Just do the tasks transporting troops, dropping supplies etc. They could enjoy having a F-15C or F-14A pilots next to them just protecting them and then get little more attention when they need to start doing something while others are fighting around them.

There are many things that could be really a free. And L-39 would be awesome trainer aircraft to specifically teach all possible virtual pilots to start working around the DCS itself.

As if we look now the AAA games one of the most common wishes, it is Co-Op capability.

And getting those to fly with us (we already have Su-25T and TF-51 free) but us to train them to operate better, will bring more buyers. As at some point they will look past the L-39C attack capabilities and say "I would like to fly X...."

I honestly don't know that I've ever met a person in the flight sim community that was trained by another sim pilot in a trainer.

If you want to learn the L-39, crash it and get shot down until you don't. Its a sim, press reset and move on. I get people want a realistic experience but come on!

well, depending on the flight level skills you want. If you want to fly like a real pilot with procedures... and that stuff.. you need a trainer.

I don't see a reason to. The module is well worth the money and it's a lot of fun. There are so many things you can do with it (both the C and the ZA), and even though I've played for years and simmed for longer, I've learned a thing or two using it (particularly loved the instrument training shroud).

I understand trainers are not for everyone, but it's not meant for those who don't want to use it. A lot of work went into it, it's a brilliant module. It was priced cheap when I got it ($49.99) and I'd buy it again at it's current price too.

Not that I don't appreciate the thought you put into this, as you obviously thought about it quite a bit. Just don't see a real reason to do it. They deserve money, I'm not sure why any of it is free beyond maybe a time limited trial.

They deserve money, I'm not sure why any of it is free beyond maybe a time limited trial.

Maybe you should consider that ED is a bussiness and is in it for the money. When they made the TF51 and su25t free they didnt do it out of the kindness of their heart , they did it because someone said "we could probably make more money if we do this".

Same thing might happen with L39. So good idea.

I don't agree too much with your points, but what I would make free, as others have noted, would be the door gunners in the Huey, Rio in the F-14, possibly the flight engineer in the Mi-8. You have to take into account that the development of each module is extremely expensive.

Maybe you should consider that ED is a bussiness and is in it for the money. When they made the TF51 and su25t free they didnt do it out of the kindness of their heart , they did it because someone said "we could probably make more money if we do this".

 

Same thing might happen with L39. So good idea.

I'll try that logic on my local furniture shop. I need a new chair, maybe they'll give me an older model for free :lol:

My point stands validated and uncorrected, aside from a time limited trial other than being nice there's really no reason for any of it to be free.

Where is it being said by ED that they may make the L-39 free by the way? I'd be interested to see your source, I hadn't seen it! :thumbup:

I'm very skeptic about this "flight instructor" stuff, so I have to choose no. I just can't think of how that would work well without a group the user belongs to, or without a friend that they are able to communicate proficiently with.

[sarcasm]besides, simming is why we don't have many friends in the first place, we're lame Royal Chair Force geeks who spend thousands of dollars on our vidya gaems, haha...ha...:cry:[/sarcasm]

ED should just release the DCS MiG-29UBM Fulcrum E Trainer Version and all is fine in the future

L39 is made extremly well. You can actually feel the plane while flying.

This module might became free or might have big discounts after few years maybe... not for now!

Definitely not. If you want it, buy it. If you don't then this whole thread is pointless. The fact that this and other modules are training aircraft doesn't make them any less costly to develop and market.

The two aircraft that are distributed free with DCS World are there to get people to try it, and then realise that DCS World is as good as advertised.

The L-39C and ZA speak for themselves in terms of quality and realism. They are worth the purchase price. Period!

I understand your opinion, but the hard work they put into this model deserve money....free multicrews position for modules you don't buy would be very nice though, like ROF.

I honestly don't know that I've ever met a person in the flight sim community that was trained by another sim pilot in a trainer.

 

If you want to learn the L-39, crash it and get shot down until you don't. Its a sim, press reset and move on. I get people want a realistic experience but come on!

So why do we have trainers in the simulator? Did you read my original post where I raised this question: Why we have trainers in a simulator, when we can just press a button and reset training?

Like you want to learn to land?

Make quick mission placing aircraft near runway to landing position and just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.... Until you have hitted your head enough on the wall and you actually manage to do it. It is one way to have fun for some.

For others it could be co-op. Flying with friends but instead flying in separated aircrafts you do it on same one and the other will correct you once you are doing the mistake. Or you can sit and listen your buddy what he is doing when he says the values what he looks and handling and so on.

So instead trying to fly on the wing with a friend and then crash and burn and respawn, you actually both are doing something together.

That works for:

- Landing

- Take-Off

- Rocket Runs

- Bomb Runs

- Dog Fight

- Air Refueling

- Navigation

What is the catch? You spend time with your friend talking, or even with random person and become a online friend that way.

This way you can speed up the process get someone fly Su-25T that is free as well (and one of the most capable aircraft in DCS currently, capable to do almost everything than BVR, as it does Anti-Tank, Anti-Ship, Anti-Building, Anti-Personnel, SEAD and light air-to-air patrols) without them spending money to simple trainer (seriously, if it is even said that F-86 beats in features the L-39C.... Never less the Su-25T that is free!) that gets then left to virtual hangar after a time...?

The Free version of L-39C would not be anything that anyone could just download and start flying alone. So it is not a loss for a ED because someone needs to first buy a L-39ZA to offer the free seat for someone else.

And that someone else more likely will go and buy some other modules after that like F-15C or Su-27S if they get interested to those air-to-air task, or then they just jump to Su-25T and still fly for free.

And it just makes it easier for existing DCS customer to lure more people to the DCS. And isn't that the thing DCS community would want? More pilots? More money to other modules etc?

Or maybe ED should make Su-25T and TF-51 behind price tag.... As isn't it just stupid to offer those two free as well?

Maybe you should consider that ED is a bussiness and is in it for the money. When they made the TF51 and su25t free they didnt do it out of the kindness of their heart , they did it because someone said "we could probably make more money if we do this".

 

Same thing might happen with L39. So good idea.

Remember, I am not talking about both L-39.

We have two.

L-39C

L-39ZA

The L-39C would be a free only by the "student seat".

The L-39ZA would payware.

And you need L-39ZA to get a L-39C "student seat".

So ED is still making money by selling L-39ZA.

No one could be just now download DCS, get L-39C free and go out flying and blowing stuff up. No, they would need someone with L-39ZA to hand them a "student seat" to L-39C in a server.

Just like a UH-1H door gunner seat would be a free. Someone could jump in one position once someone who owns UH-1H module and is flying it. No one could fly free the UH-1H just because the door gunner positions are free!

So ED would not offer L-39 (C & ZA) free. They would not even offer L-39C free. They would offer only the front seat as free!

And that front seat being free, would not get up to the air alone! They would need a flight instructor to do so!

So if you want to just get up and fly alone, you need to buy the L-39 module.

If you want to fly it free, you need to get in touch with someone who owns the module, to offer you a change to fly it.

And if the L-39 is so great by the feeling, they will get a "free trial" (where trial is as time period as long the others are allowing others to jump in and fly) and that way get a feeling to the DCS capability!

Nothing would basically not differ from the current sales or anything. Only that someone else could jump to student seat, if someone has it placed available in the DCS server.

The flight instructor, the payware owners are always in full control. They can at any moment take away the controls. they can do everything that the flight instructor could do in the real trainer.

So if there comes some idiots who doesn't like to play nice, what else they can do than just sit in and turn their head around when the payware owner doesn't give them the controls!

There would be of course idiot payware owners as well, but you soon learn who they are and you just don't fly with them! And they soon learn that they are wasting time to trying have some with "students".

Definitely not. If you want it, buy it. If you don't then this whole thread is pointless. The fact that this and other modules are training aircraft doesn't make them any less costly to develop and market.

 

The two aircraft that are distributed free with DCS World are there to get people to try it, and then realise that DCS World is as good as advertised.

 

The L-39C and ZA speak for themselves in terms of quality and realism. They are worth the purchase price. Period!

Sorry, you are missing a point, because I didn't make myself totally clear. So let me explain it differently.

Only the front seat would be free and that rear seat is required to be seated by L-39ZA owner!

So for every student who want to fly free, should get a person who have PAID for L-39 module! And that paid customer has possibility to fly either seat, but free can only sit in the front and can't do anything alone without a flight instructor giving them the controls!

So at the moment the flight instructor at the backseat disconnects, drops out or something, the student loses the controls and aircraft will crash and burn.

If the rear seat doesn't give controls, access to weapons or so what the simulated system actually works, the "free pilot" doesn't get anything else than a seat to sit down and look around!

So no one is getting the module as free, fly alone, blow things up etc.

So it would not be anything like Su-25T or even TF-51! But way more limited!

Or maybe ED should make Su-25T and TF-51 behind price tag.... As isn't it just stupid to offer those two free as well?

The SU-25T is a low fidelity sim which showcases FC3 level aircraft and a lot of the weapon possiblities you have with the complex modules.

The TF-51 showcases a high fidelity sim in anything but the weapons.

If you are on the fence if DCS is your thing, you can check those out and get a good idea what you can expect from the paid modules.

A passive seat in a trainer will not give you a more representative idea of flying in DCS and if you're that invested into DCS, chances are likely for ED that you will buy a module.

It is just a bad business model to give stuff for free

I'll try that logic on my local furniture shop. I need a new chair, maybe they'll give me an older model for free :lol:

Illogical.

Based that it would be that Eagle Dynamics would give FC3 free for everyone because some people want latest modules like L-39, F-18 or so on.

My point stands validated and uncorrected, aside from a time limited trial other than being nice there's really no reason for any of it to be free.

Your point doesn't work. :D

Where is it being said by ED that they may make the L-39 free by the way? I'd be interested to see your source, I hadn't seen it! :thumbup:

He only speculated.

But as I have replied now, to clarify the original post.

Only the front seat would be free. And it would require a paid module owner to sit at the rear to give the controls for the "student" for the time as long the paid module owner sits in the back (disconnects, switch aircraft etc would remove the controls automatically from the front seat).

 

A back seat in a trainer will not give you a more representative idea of flying in DCS and if you're that invested into DCS, chances are likely for ED that you will buy a module.

I am not talking back seat, only for the front seat. Only for the student position. And the "free" (should have said "Open Slot") seat at front has limitations just as the rear sitter wants to be. If the rear sitter wants to deny weapons controls (or what ever is possible in that trainer in reality and simulated) then that is so. If the rear seat wants to override the front seat controls, so happens.

The front seat gets only the access to the functions that the rear seat allows.

So the rear seat can give the front seat to get feeling of flying, get feeling to use the weapons etc.

It is just a bad business model to give stuff for free

Really? That is actually totally opposite.

- Su-25T is free

- TF-51 is free

- Perfume companies offer free samples in stores and shows

- Stores offer free bundles for their customers etc.

- Linux is free (world most used operating system today) as money is done with services and other software.

The "Free" is something that will generate more money.

I am not saying that L-39C and L-39ZA are both free fully.

Only that front seat of the L-39C is free, to be offered by someone who has paid the module and is willing to open that free seat to someone else in the server for the time that they are sitting at the back seat.

And this is only for L-39C, not for L-39ZA!

So if you want to fly with buddy in same aircraft and get the extra pylons and so on, both needs to buy the L-39 module. And no one can open L-39ZA front seat to anyone, as it is behind payware. Only the L-39C front seat slot is open/free for non-paid DCS owners if someone with L-39 paid module is willing to open that slot!