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Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base


Mozart

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Hello Community,

 

so I am really missing a force feedback joystick and I have noticed the Brunner joystick base, which is expensive and not compatible (yet). It's worth the price if the functionality is there I guess.

 

https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/produkt/cls-e-joystick/?lang=de

 

So the question is, how can I get Brunner and ED to work together to make it compatible?

Is anyone of ED reading along to suggest who could be a contact person with the developers?

 

Also there is the question of expected functionality, please comment on that, if what I am expecting is going to be reasonable:

 

-Stick forces increasing with higher speed

 

-neutral point changing according to trim

 

-buffet before stall (most helpful feature in my opinion during dogfights)

 

-helicopters: force trim functionality

 

 

Thanks for your comments,

Mozart.

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For the price, there's going to be very few people who are going to purchase it. Brunner makes devices for the general aviation sim market, which is much larger market. As much as we would love for them to support DCS, the reality is that it's just not worth their time to write a plugin for DCS for the few dozen orders that they'd get.

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Hi Mozart, you say it's not compatible with DCS, but it's plug'n'play usb, and works with windows and many other sims (that for some need a compatibility because they don't support force feedback natively).

So I bet it will work flawlessly with DCS that supports force feedback natively. (Ask Brunner by mail to be sure ?)

 

The functionality you talk about are features of the flight sim compatibility with force feedback, so DCS offers all that (Stick forces increase with high speed in non FBW planes, like WWII fighters, and trim changes the neutral point in all modules, and has a specific work with helicopters. Vibrations before stall are not common iirc, maybe with SU25t that has more force features than others, like guns vibrations).


Edited by toutenglisse
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  • 4 weeks later...
I'd buy this tomorrow if it would work with DCS. I doubt it's going to happen for the reasons stated above.

I asked them about this and they told me that it is planned to support DCS and also HID FFB.

However, their priority is on their professional products, so it's unclear when this is going to happen.

 

 

Unfortunately, there isn't much news from Iris Dynamics as well, so it's either this one or none, it seems.

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  • 3 weeks later...

So I'm thinking about actually getting this base (the CLS-E version. CLS-P is way too expensive) to pair it up with my Warthog stick.

 

 

Since obviously it doesn't work in FFB mode for DCS yet … can someone say something about using it in plain spring-simulated mode?

How about precision around the center (most important thing for Helos)?

 

 

I plan do to a lot of flying in XP11, so at least there I can then use the FFB of the stick properly and I'd hope that DCS support isn't years away, but we'll see.

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hm, reading this, it seems to me as if trim functionality in DCS should still be available when using "Hardware Trim" together with USB HID functionality.

It still won't be a proper FFB stick, but having force trim would still be a major step forward.

 

 

 

https://cls2sim.brunner-innovation.swiss/VirtualJoystick.htm

 

https://cls2sim.brunner-innovation.swiss/TrimFunctionality.htm

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While this is a dream come true, working part time with health expenses up the wazoo, I can’t do it. Warthog,yes. Not this. Understand it’s not for us it’s for commercial apps, instead of marketing DCS they should say it’s compatible with TBS(The Battle Simulator) the commercial branch of a DCS

Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com

E3FFFC01-584A-411C-8AFB-B02A23157EB6.jpeg

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Yeah, their focus is definitely on professional aviation training.

But since I don't have the time to realize the DIY FFB Joystick and an aciant MS FFB stick isn't an option for me, this is the best I could get, even though for DCS it's currently quite limited.

The Iris Dynamics looks very interesting as well, but I doubt it will be cheaper, comparing the prices of the corresponding yokes of the two companies.

Maybe within 5 years time things will change, we'll see.

If I get it (and currently I'm 90% certain that I will), I will of course report back. ;)

 

You might be right about TBS, but I'm a bit sceptical that they can really get many customers for that.

 

 

Edit: btw, the CSL-P Cyclic looks reeeeeeaaallly sweet. But the price … ouch …

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I asked the Brunner customer service reps about using the hardware trim functionality to emulate helicopter force trim, with a trim release button, in sims that aren’t supported by their API (specifically DCS). They confirmed that this is true, using their software, it’s possible.

 

I took the plunge, and will definitely report back once I’ve received the stick, and tried it. The only thing that worries me, is the max force is much less compared to that of their cyclic, so I hope it can stand up to using an extension with the Warthog grip.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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I asked the Brunner customer service reps about using the hardware trim functionality to emulate helicopter force trim, with a trim release button, in sims that aren’t supported by their API (specifically DCS). They confirmed that this is true, using their software, it’s possible.

 

I took the plunge, and will definitely report back once I’ve received the stick, and tried it. The only thing that worries me, is the max force is much less compared to that of their cyclic, so I hope it can stand up to using an extension with the Warthog grip.

Depends on the extension, I'd say. It won't be able to support a 30-50 cm extension or the forces would be rather low.

They also told me that the drives might overheat (might prevent that by setting the max torque a bit lower, e.g. 4 Nm) and that the stick might start shaking (might be able to fix that with a different force profile).

If it's just a 10 cm extension, I wouldn't worry too much, since they specifically support the T-50, which is already a quite a bit taller than the Warthog.

 

Personally, I think I will use it as a side-mount base and my Warthog grip, maybe with a 5-10 cm extension, not sure yet.

Already ordered the stick, will go on its tour on the 14th.

Need to design a mount first, though. ^^

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Depends on the extension, I'd say. It won't be able to support a 30-50 cm extension or the forces would be rather low.

They also told me that the drives might overheat (might prevent that by setting the max torque a bit lower, e.g. 4 Nm) and that the stick might start shaking (might be able to fix that with a different force profile).

If it's just a 10 cm extension, I wouldn't worry too much, since they specifically support the T-50, which is already a quite a bit taller than the Warthog.

 

Personally, I think I will use it as a side-mount base and my Warthog grip, maybe with a 5-10 cm extension, not sure yet.

Already ordered the stick, will go on its tour on the 14th.

Need to design a mount first, though. ^^

 

Big difference on WH and Virpil in weight. If you are going to pay that much for a stick i would just mod a different grip like the Virpil or a plastic F16 one. The WH is such a bitch to mod extensions due to its weight for helicopter flying and any FFB stick, inertia and so on. It will be a far easier and better experience

1080 ti, i7700k 5ghz, 16gb 3600 cl14 ddr4 oc

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Big difference on WH and Virpil in weight. If you are going to pay that much for a stick i would just mod a different grip like the Virpil or a plastic F16 one. The WH is such a bitch to mod extensions due to its weight for helicopter flying and any FFB stick, inertia and so on. It will be a far easier and better experience

The warthog is what I have right now, so it's just the easy choice.

Personally, I'm not a big button user. I only use four buttons on the stick anyway (thumb for trim, trigger for radio, pinky for brake (Mi-8R) or sling (Huey) and button right forward for trim reset).

Don't really need any of the coolies tbh, I get along just fine.

 

 

I'm also using the warthog throttle as a collective (in reverse) even though I plan on getting a proper collective from microhelis, but I'm not in a hurry there, since the warthog throttle does a fine job.

But again, I only use very few buttons on that throttle, but rather use the clickables in the cockpit where I can.

Also, if I asign functions to buttons, I tend to use my Arcaze button box, because I can manipulate the button behavior there, which I can't (at least not without Target, which personally I hate) on the warthog.

 

 

So … what I wanted to say is that I thought about getting that VPC grip, but since I already have the warthog I'm not in a hurry there. Still can always go in that direction if I want to later on. ;)

 

I am extremely interested in how the force trim feels once you get it in, especially since MonsterTech now has a mounting plate for it. Please keep us updated!

Sure will. If everything goes according to plan, I will receive it next week.

I might have to do the first experiments with very low force though since I have yet to built the mount. Can't use the MonsterTech one because my rig has a different layout and it wouldn't work.

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So, I received my base today.

 

 

Content: base, PSU, USB cable and quick start guide

If you just want to use it as a joystick, it's pretty much plug&play. Directly available as a normal HID joystick with a medium force profile.

There is no noticable stepping effect, it's very smooth, especially around the center.

That already is a big upgrade from the (unmodified) Warthog due to the well known problems the Warthog has.

The buttons on the stick (Warthog grip in my case) are passed through in the same order as for the Warthog, afaics.

 

 

I did some initial setting up, but this was only very quick work (maybe 10min in total), so there is a lot of optimization possible.

From the default profile, I reduced the overall force a bit (force factor 25 from 10 standard where higher means lower force), reduced hydralics centering from 400 (%?) to 200 on both axis.

Also reduced the trim speed, so it doesn't happen so instantaneously.

 

Select hardware trim (since we don't have a connection to the sim) and set one button as trim release (to set the trim) and one as trim reset.

Works quite nicely.

 

 

In DCS I did a short flight in the Huey and while I still have to get used to the (now) lower forces and especially lower resistance, it felt much much better immediately.

I felt that I was much more in control of the helicopter and could actually give the (micro) input I want to give.

In many cases it's not really like you're really moving the stick but rather that you "think" that you move it in a direction.

From what I've read and heard about helicopters, this is pretty much how it's done IRL.

 

 

I still have to practice, because from the Warthog I got used to do exaggerated movements and corrections (due to the missing smoothness and the relatively high forces required), so I'm overshooting sometimes still, but even in the few minutes I did fly the Huey earlier on, I was improving rapidly.

Especially the transition from forward flight to hover seems more natural and easier.

 

 

So … for the moment I'm a very happy (and proud) owner of the brunner FFB base.

Much testing ahead, both in DCS and in XP11. Looking forward to the weekend. :joystick:

 

 

Edit: the only thing I don't like so far is that the leather covering of the base makes some kind of creaking noise when moved to the right and then forward/backward.

Thankfully when concentrating on flying, it's unlikely that you'll notice and at least in a helicopter that kind of movement is uncommon.


Edited by Berniyh
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  • 4 weeks later...

Just received mine today. Definitely a nice piece of equipment, and DCS would definitely be awesome if the FFB plugin ever became a reality.

 

So far, I only have two complaints: 1) It's pretty bulky, and as I intend to use it primarily for helo flights, it's kind of a pain to get it setup for a center mount. I have the Monstertech mount for it, but it just exacerbates the base size. Basically, I'm going to have to figure out a way to mount it low, with a really light extension and grip so as not to dampen the force feedback, or stress the motors too much.

 

2) I bought a T-50cm grip from Virpil, thinking that would fill the gap of a light grip, but unfortunately, no matter what I do, I can't get the buttons to register. I have a BRD Black Stork with a Warthog grip on it. The Warthog grip works on both bases. For whatever reason, the T-50 will only work with the Black Stork base. I've contacted both Brunner, and Virpil. So far, Virpil says they don't know what the problem is, and that they don't list the CLS-E as a compatible device. We'll see if Brunner has any ideas...

 

Otherwise, so far the base is great as a helicopter cyclic. I'm able to assign whatever button I like as a trim release, as well as a trim hat for fine tuning. I'm looking forward to trying it out with Prepar3D and XPlane to see what the native FFB modes are like.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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Small update. I converted a Thrustmaster F-22 stick grip using the tailpiece from an old Warthog grip (I actually bought stuff from Shapeways to do it, but nothing fit exactly right).

 

The grip is good since it's lighter, so that may become the primary if I can't get the T-50 to work. I've also found an extension for sale on E-bay where the seller is willing to customize the extension length. I'm getting a custom length of his so-called 'Goose Neck' version, so I can move my seat closer to the stick without contacting the extension.

 

The listing is posted here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINIUM-EXTENSIONS-FOR-THRUSTMASTER-WARTHOG-COUGAR-H-O-T-A-S-JOYSTICKS-/292123030904

 

After sending him a .ppt with measurements of what I want, he told me he'd go ahead and make it, send me pictures, and then I can buy it through the listing on Ebay.

 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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  • 1 month later...

Your Experience?

 

Hi guys,

 

thank you a lot for your feedback on the experience with the Brunner base!

 

Is there any lag in the force feedback response? I remember on the Microsoft Force Feedback stick that I would move the stick and then, with a delay, the stick would apply pressure against my movement. That delay was a showstopper for me, it felt so unreal...

 

Could you report on the experience in the supported sims?

 

Take care,

Mozart.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Berniyh

 

 

I´m also very interested in this. Just noticed it recently. Who knows how long the old plastic gears of my G940 are going to last...

 

Brunner responded to my inquiry very much in the same way.

It seems that next to FSX, P3D and X-Plane DCS is the only title that doesn´t support dynamic forces yet and that it´s going to be a while until this changes - as always without any concrete indication. But it makes me hopeful.

 

 

 

@heloguy

 

 

You can properly use the force trim functionality of DCS helos on this?

Since helos are my main reason to go for this base I would think that it´s worth a try.

If FFB is added for DCS later it´ll be perfect.

 

It´s just very sad that the T-50 grip might not work with it...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Deedle, deedle!

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The delay in force feedback is software related. For exemple P3d's native force feedback is delayed (it's the only one I know that works weirdly this way) whatever the joystick is. The only way to corect this is to use a 3rd party force feedback software.

 

No delay with DCS.

 

I don't think P3D has a force feedback delay. I think what you're referring to, and what seems like a delay is the "Sensitivity" setting. I just tune that to make all my axis very sensitive, that gets rid of that issue for me.

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@heloguy

 

 

You can properly use the force trim functionality of DCS helos on this?

Since helos are my main reason to go for this base I would think that it´s worth a try.

If FFB is added for DCS later it´ll be perfect.

 

It´s just very sad that the T-50 grip might not work with it...

 

Yes, it works, but you have to use Brunner's profile software to use it correctly. If you ever used the SimFFB utility that was floating around here, it gives you similar functionality. Under the 'Trim' tab in the Profile Manager, you choose 'Hardware Trim' mode. You choose what button on the grip is a trim release, as well as which buttons motor the trim hat. After you set a profile, you just need to remember to fire up the Brunner software (CLS2Sim), and click the connect button once your joystick is up and running. I could easily send you my profile for DCS helos and fixed wing if you send me a PM.

 

 

Definitely worth the extra step to have functioning trim in helos.

 

 

I've been using the stick with Prepar3D and X-Plane 11 with ok results. Both sims require a plug-in install to make the stick work properly in FFB mode. I haven't had good luck with trim in fixed wing applications, but the vibration due to engines and ground roll have worked fine. I've ended up using the 'Hardware Trim' mode with both of those sims as well. The turbulence function seemed very robotic, and had a set frequency, so I disabled it, as I found it annoying.

 

I think it would be nice if DCS ever got a plug-in, but based on what I've seen with Prepar3D and X-Plane, I won't cry if it never does. The effects are ok with those two sims, but I find the Buttkicker and Jet Seat to be adequate for feedback (especially the Jet Seat).

 

As far as the grip is concerned, I've pretty much stayed with the F-22 grip I cobbled together. I only slightly miss the push function of the CMS switch on my Warthog grip. I was able to get an older T-50 off E-Bay, and it works fine, but it's so tall, it doesn't fit in my sim setup. I'm currently using a 20cm Sahaj extension, so room for the joystick throw is at a premium (every time you plug in the power, it has to calibrate itself by moving through full roll and pitch axis travel, and must not be interrupted).

 

As it stands, this is my main control now, as it is smooth, precise, and allows for realistic trim for helos and fixed wing. I also own a Warthog, BRD Black Stork, 2xGunfighters, Mongoose T-50, FSSB R3, Microhelis EC-145 Cyclic, Komodosim EC-145 Cyclic, and Cougar, if that gives you any idea of what I've tried so far. It's been a long road, and longer search for what feels like the best all-around control (I fly helos for trade, and dabble in fixed-wing for leisure, so when I sim, I fly both).

 

Edit: Not sure why the picture rotated 90 degrees left, but hopefully you get the idea.

IMG_5311.thumb.JPG.3e0cc9569ba3d84061cdbe455db966cb.JPG


Edited by heloguy
 

i9 12900k @ 4.9ghz, 32gb RAM

Nvidia RTX 3090

Windows 11 x64

Valve Index

Brunner CLS-E w/RS F16GRH, Virpil TCS Rotor Plus Collective, BRD F1 Pedals, WH Throttle, FSSB R3 w/WH Grip, PointCTRL v1

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