F16 ICP Project

Hey all, I originally put this post up over at viperpits.org, but since that board requires registration and the community is larger here, I decided to post it here as well. I know that there's no F16 in DCS (yet), but since the ICP can also be used as the A-10's UFC or the Ka-50's PVI-800, I figured this info could be useful to some people.

I'm starting a build of a ICP because I can't find one out there that matches my requirements. Before I start, here's a quick picture of my current setup:

I don't exclusively play Falcon BMS, so my pit is intended to be used across multiple aircraft. However, I do want an ICP because I can use it across several aircraft and Falcon BMS is my main sim. As you'll notice from the picture, I currently use Redneck's ICP (now known as Viper Gear). It's a great value for the price ($325 without S&H), but I do have some issues with it (note that in the following picture, I removed the two toggle switches that it comes with):

1. The backlight is uneven. The "C" in ICP is brighter than the other 2 letters, SYM, BRT, DEPR, and CONT are dim, and the numbers in the buttons are brighter than the text above it.

2. The buttons use tactile switches that have a rather high activation force. This may be similar to the real ICP, but I'm not a big fan of it for sim use. I'd rather have push buttons that are softer with more travel.

3. The 'rocker' switch uses the same tactile switches, and is a flat button that doesn't rock. I'd rather have it be a real rocker switch that is V-shaped.

4. The buttons are rather loose. When flipping the DRIFT C/O switch, the buttons will jump around, particularly the master mode buttons.

5. The backlight leaks through the edges of the buttons. As far as I can tell, on the real ICP only the numbers and text is illuminated, not the edges.

6. The dials use rotary encoders instead of potentiometers or rotary position sensors. It doesn't allow for smooth motion and will instead 'step' through the axis rather than smoothly rolling through it.

7. The front panel is a 2-layer acrylic panel that has the text engraved on the reverse side, similar to this one on Inventables. However, on mine, there was an issue where two spots leaked through (one to the right of the ENTER button, one to the right of the 0 button), so Redneck colored them over with a sharpie. This is obvious because Sharpie's look purple when placed next to something more black than it, and the spots wasn't colored over well enough so light still shines through:

8. The wires for the potentiometers are really easy to break off. I've already broken off 3 of them just taking apart the ICP, which I've had to solder back on. Cutting apart the shrink wrap reveals that the wire broke off at the point where it just clears the potentiometer leg. Even with shrink wrap, this is why it's not great to solder wires directly to PC pins instead of actual solder lugs that allow you to insert a wire in a hole to act as stress relief.

9. The DCS switch uses a standard SMD 2-axis tactile switch, but this switch wasn't really designed to be used with a lever arm. As a result, it's *very* easy to accidentally brush it and have it activate a direction without even knowing about it. I've have multiple times already where I think I'm changing my steerpoint, but I'm actually changing the UHF channel because at some point I inadvertently pushed the DCS switch.

For these reasons, I've decided to build my own ICP.

My design goals are:

1. Use a real DCS switch. I've already purchased it from Mouser.

2. Use Honeywell miniature toggle switches. The Apem switches that comes with Redneck's ICP feel ok, but not that great.

3. Stop light from leaking from the edges of the buttons, and have the backlight only illuminate the text.

4. Use push buttons instead of tactile switches for a better feel, even if it's not authentic. Also tighten up the buttons with some foam or other material to prevent them from rattling.

5. Make each backlight LED individually addressable in order to control their brightness independently. This will make it easier to smooth out the illumination, as well as be able to turn on/off and flash buttons individually, which will be useful when used with other sims.

6. Use potentiometers for the 4 wheels, and implement the on/off switch using software. I've looked into this, and it looks like it's impossible to use potentiometers with built-in switches. Not only are the ones with switches too big, but they will also be in the wrong position when mounted on the left side (the switch is at the full counter-clockwise position, and when the pot is mounted on the left, this will be at the top of the wheel travel).

7. Use rocker switches for the two rockers. I've looked through a number of rocker switches and none match close enough to the 10x22mm hole, but I did find some that lets you to put your own cap on top, so I will most likely 3D print one.

8. Use a project box to enclose the entire ICP. Someone recommended that the Polycase LP-70P is almost an exact match for the ICP and I agree. With a custom ICP backplate to act as the LP-70P's cover, it will hopefully look like the project box was designed for the ICP itself.

I will try to achieve as many of these design goals as possible, but one limiting factor is that I live in a very small apartment and only have access to hand tools. I will need to outsource anything that requires any degree of precision to other companies, which means that nearly every component will need to be made elsewhere and shipped to me. This can easily spiral costs out of control, but hopefully with some good measurements and initial CAD work, I can minimize the risk.

Otto T4-CN211N DCS switch mini-review:

For $100, I have mixed feelings about this switch. It requires a heavy activation force when pushed in any direction, which is exactly what I want, but the 4 directions all feel different than each other. Pushing the stick to the left is smooth all the way until it hits the limit of its travel, and I expected all 4 directions to feel this way. However, pushing it up and down requires a heavier force, and has a region where the force gets heavier, similar to how a Cherry brown switch feels different once you get past its activation point. The right side requires an even heavier force than the other 3 sides. Because the switch is weather sealed, there's no way for me to open it to adjust it internally. It feels like there's a big spring coiled around the stick, but is coiled in a way that makes the 4 directions feel different. I'd imagine that in actual use this is not much of a concern, but evaluating it by itself, I feel that it doesn't really feel like it's worth $100.

Another thing is that the switch has a very small lip, only around 0.85mm. The catalog states that it's a 11/16" thread, which means a 45/64" clearance hole is needed for a close fit or 23/32" for a free fit. This translates to a 0.2mm or 0.4mm gap around the switch. If you can't get the hole drilled very exactly, it's too easy to accidentally drill away too much due to the low tolerance.

Hispapanel ICP Front Panel

I was originally considering getting the $425 Viperpanels.com ICP panels, but after reading stories about how the owner doesn't reply to e-mails and fulfills orders sometimes 6 months to a year after the order date, I decided to get the Hispapanel ICP panel instead. It arrived inside of a week. The panels come with the protective layer still attached; the pictures above are of the panels after the protective layer is removed. The two intermediate layers are transparent except for the sides, and the front panel itself is made out of 2-layer acrylic, but the white layer is opaque. You can shine a LED light through it, but you need a fairly bright LED that's right up against the acrylic in order to get any sort of brightness on the other side, though the upside is that it acts as a natural diffuser. The panels are about 3mm thick each.

The ICP also comes with buttons that are also made out of 2-layer acrylic with the words engraved on top (Redneck's ICP has the words engraved on the reverse side). It also comes with clear acrylic pieces slightly larger than a button and a square hole in the middle. I'm not sure exactly how you're supposed to put these together; I know that you're supposed to glue them together, but I don't know what the square hole is for or how exactly you're supposed to align them together. The square hole is also too small for a tactile switch stem and there's no alignment marking on the buttons themselves, so my guess is that it's just some kind of manufacturing thing? 3 of my buttons also came with chips in them. 2 might be issues with shipping (they're shipped together in a single bag, so they could be rubbing against each other), but 1 was very obviously chipped during the manufacturing process itself:

Wheels are also provided, but they're not only the wrong color and too thin, but they're also slanted:

If you look closely at the image, the grooves don't line up and the top of the wheels aren't straight. The slant is more obvious if you spin the wheel, as it appears to ripple around when spun. One of the wheels I got also has some black spray paint on it, like it was too close to the ICP front panel when it was getting sprayed. Luckily, I don't plan to use the buttons or the wheels, so these issues don't really affect me.

Here's what the 3 panels look like when switches are mounted to it. In the end I only plan to use the front panel, but this gives me a good visualization of how the through-hole switches will look like when mounted:

Notice that the DCS switch needs to be lower than the other 2 switches that are mounted on the middle layer. This is because it needs more space for the lever to move around in when it's tilted. I measured the required gap to be about 9mm between the top of the acrylic mounting layer and the back side of the front plate. Any lower and the DCS switch will hit the back of the front plate when moved. I also noticed that the amount of force required to move the lever is causing the acrylic to bend slightly. Though I don't plan to use the middle and back acrylic layers, this probably also means that mounting it on a circuit board is not a great idea, as over time the force can cause the board to crack.

The keyway for the two toggle switches are also too wide out of the box. Most siwtches require a 1.83mm-wide keyway, but the middle acrylic panel's keyway is 2.35mm. I purchased a set of 1mm files on eBay and filed the keyway down in order to get the switches to fit. I also purchased a M3 nylon screw and spacer set, also on eBay, that allows me to play around with various distances between the 3 panels to see what works best.

That's all the info I have to share for now. I'm currently in the process of drawing up a CAD diagram for the ICP front panel so that I can start designing a circuit board for it, but it's a slow process because I need to measure everything. For the most part, it follows pretty closely to the actual ICP dimensions, but it's not quite the same so I need to double-confirm everything.

I'm making progress on the Hispapanel CAD drawing:

You can find it here: https://cad.onshape.com/documents/fc0cbecdb84b963f470caf2a/w/a3bb88e56d58cca0c2ca2d52/e/9646fe8fff198f5e44bf12ee

You will need to create a free account to view it, but I prefer Onshape because it's free, it's better than SketchUp, and it allows for exports in multiple file formats. My plan is to model out the front panel and all the components I want to use (buttons, switches, etc), and then combine them together to see how it would all theoretically fit together before I start getting things 3D printed and designing the circuit board.

One thing that makes modeling the front panel difficult is that the panel is an actual item that's manufactured with a certain tolerance, whereas a CAD drawing is the ideal. For example, the button holes measure 13.5 x 13.6mm, and the spacing between column 1 and column 2 is 5.6mm, but 5.5mm between column 2 and column 3. Ideally, the button holes should be a pure square, and the spacing between the columns should be the same for all columns. I have to make a decision on whether to use the actual measured values, or go with the ideal value. 0.1mm may not sound like a big deal, but when you have multiple items that are positioned in relation to each other, it can easily add up to more than 1mm off by the time you finish placing all the components in a line.

I did ask Hispapanel for a dimensional drawing, but they sent over this, which is fairly useless:

It's unclear what the 3x3mm squares are supposed to represent. I assumed that the center of each square is the center of each hole, but measuring it out shows that they're more than a few mm off from the actual measured value. I will ask them again for a better dimensional drawing, but I can understand if they're reluctant to provide it, as it can be used to create clones. I also need to pick up a second panel; my calipers are doing a really good job of scraping the paint off of this first one.

Some updates: I've decided to stop measuring out the Hispapanel and instead use the CAD drawings from here: https://github.com/JonahTsai/F16/tree/master/ICP

This is due to several reasons. I still can't get accurate dimensions from measuring it. I'll measure the spacing between each hole and it'll match up to my drawing, but when I repeat the same measurement from the left edge, suddenly everything's off by 0.1-0.2mm. Then when I try it from the right edge, it's off by a different amount.

There's also no way of adding a finger guard to the Hispapanel unless I simply glue it on. If I use a CAD file that I can control, then I can add a channel for the finger guard to sit in. I've already extracted out the finger guard from the aforementioned CAD drawings and added a 1mm extension on the underside:

And uploading it to Shapeways shows that it will be quite cheap to print in either steel (~$24) and professional plastic (~$12). The Onshape drawing can be found here: https://cad.onshape.com/documents/a0dbab0389b4a3940def7514/w/2e052f0607ec455fa72986cc/e/7d7352af587dca7abebe90dc

Additionally, the CAD drawings are a complete set; it has drawings for both rockers, all the buttons, and even the backplate, and the cutouts are perfectly matched for the size and height of the Otto T4 switch and Honeywell toggle switches. The only downside is that there's only 5mm of distance between the bottom of the button and the backplate:

This will be an issue because if I go with a push button, they will all be taller than 5mm. This means that instead of being able to sandwich the circuit board in between the backplate and the front plate, I will most likely have to place the circuit board behind the backplate. I may even have to add in an additional reinforcing plate so that the order becomes front plate -> shell -> back plate -> circuit board -> reinforcing plate. I'm still trying to work this out though to see what would be best.

I've also modeled out the Otto T4 switch:

It's not 100% accurate since I can't get my calipers into the very small gaps and had to eyeball it, but it should be close enough to get an idea of how it will fit within the panel. The Onshape drawing can be found here: https://cad.onshape.com/documents/efe03f26673b12a940d2efbf/w/14b95306aeb819f8767ff750/e/044829b0aa76fe9feb6bc623

I also created a 2D DXF drawing for the ICP outline so that I can load it into Front Panel Designer (software for Front Panel Express). Adding in all the holes and text for the ICP, the estimated price comes out to ~$100 before S&H. Although it's not listed in their software, you can ask them to use a 2-color acrylic/ABS panel called Gravoply / Gravoglas:

https://www.gravograph.us/products-and-consumables/consumables-and-engraving-materials/plastic-materials-for-mechanical-engraving/gravoglas-2-plex-subsurface

https://www.gravograph.us/products-and-consumables/consumables-and-engraving-materials/plastic-materials-laser-mechanical-engraving/gravoply-2

I found this buried deep within their online help though, so I'm not sure if it's something that they still offer. Another concerning thing is that the only place I could find Gravoply for sale is selling it for $140 for a 24x48" piece. Though this is much larger than what I would need, I wonder how much Front Panel Express will charge me for an ICP-sized piece. If I'm unlucky, I'll have to buy the entire 24x48" panel. On top of that, this is only for the front plate. I still need a middle shell and the back plate; the ICP body may end up costing me $300+ depending on how things go.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue modeling out the various parts of the ICP, as well as purchasing a grab bag of components from DigiKey to see which ones I like best.

My previous employer used Gravoply to make electrical warning signs for 400V switchgear. They used Yellow on black and Red on white. Sheets vary in thickness, but for a top plate you would need one around 2mm thick, and probably an additional white acrylic sheet below that to further diffuse the back lighting. This was based on a test I did shining an iPhone torch thru the back of the Red on White acrylic that had been engraved.

Gravoply can be engraved mechanically or using a laser.

It also saves time in not having to paint the white acrylic.

Hi Ranma13, thanks for sharing. I am in the same boat as you. You can find the measures of the DCS here

Sheets vary in thickness, but for a top plate you would need one around 2mm thick, and probably an additional white acrylic sheet below that to further diffuse the back lighting.

Thanks for the info! According to Gravograph's website, they only sell them in 0.02", 1/16", 3/32", and 1/8", which corresponds to 0.508mm, 1.5875mm, 2.38125mm, and 3.175mm. The top part of the ICP is exactly 2mm, so I'm going to ask Front Panel Express if they can shave the 3/32" sheet down to 2mm.

You can find the measures of the DCS here

Thanks, that's what I started from, but it's missing a lot of measurements. The beveled part on top, for example, doesn't have any dimensions and doesn't give the bevel angle, and there are no dimensions provided for the bat and the hovering cap that has the 4 direction arrows on it.

I've completed the preliminary drawings of how I want the panels to come together:

This is without the screw holes and threading, but it's enough to get an idea of how much it will cost to manufacture. Unfortunately, even in this incomplete state, the estimate is already $300:

The shell is surprisingly the most expensive part. Milling out the inside portion alone is $35, but the real price comes from the holes for the buttons. Apparently Front Panel Designer doesn't take into account whether you've drilled a cavity or not, so a 13x13mm hole in a 3mm-thick panel is $0.72 per hole, but a 13x13mm hole in a 8mm-thick panel suddenly jumps to $2.10 per hole, even though it's the same thickness with the cavity.

Given the high price, I'm starting to wonder if I should go through with it, or stick with the Hispapanel for now until I can reduce costs somehow.

Where are you located? these do come up for sale now and then in the states

I'm in the US. I've already taken a look on eBay and there hasn't been any sold recently. The last record I could find was one that was sold in 2013:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/16-icp-real-435308773

A minor update, I'm still modeling out all the parts, and I've started communicating with some vendors besides Front Panel Express to see how much it will cost to manufacture both the front panel and the shell. It's looking like it's gonna be $150-$250 for the front panel and $150-$200 for the shell no matter which vendor I go with.

One area that's harder than expected are the thumbwheels. I found the manufacturer of the actual thumbwheel, and they have a surprisingly detailed datasheet with lots of useful dimensions:

https://www.consolite.co.uk/air/control-potentiometers-and-encoders/

https://www.consolite.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Data-5-Thumbwheel-Potentiometers-Iss-7.pdf

I'd need to adapt it so that it can be used with potentiometers. On the actual ICP, the thumbwheels are mounted to the backplate, and the thumbwheel is offset forward so that it's centered with the ICP:

Redneck gets around this by mounting the potentiometers inside of the ICP shell so that it's already centered. The upside is that this is a cheap and effective solution, but the downside is that due to how close some of the buttons are to the edge of the ICP, you're limited in what kind of potentiometers you can use; namely, low-profile side-addressed PC-pin ones. This isn't completely off the table for me, but I'm still weighing some other considerations such as whether I want physical switches or not, how the potentiometer itself feels (the smaller they are, the lighter they feel when rotated), how thick I want the thumbwheels to be versus how thick they have to be (too thick and they won't fit within the Polycase LP-70P and I'll have to find a new enclosure, but too thin means I'm severely restricted in which pots I can use), and whether I want to go with a two-piece design that mirrors the look of the real thumbwheel or a single piece that slips onto the pot stem and looks close enough.

why don't you replace the expensive aluminum shell for any other material more cheaper like acrylic?

The shell needs to be around 8mm thick, and it's hard to source acrylic in that thickness unless you stack panels on top of each other. 3D printing is also an option, but any threads will have to be tapped and the plastic won't stand up to repeated screwing/unscrewing. Aluminum can not only be tapped and be repeatedly used without much wear, but it also has very tight tolerances. That said, I haven't decided what material to use yet for the shell because I'm focusing on getting the front panel made first.

As for 3d printing, you can install brass threaded inserts, they have worked great for me atleast, come in most sizes from M3 atleast.

I found some great ones on Ebay, from the UK.

Cheers!

Hi Ranma13!

Thank you for your great post!

I would love to purchase that 4ways switch withthe same "hat" (N-Post type?) ... Where did you orderd yours?

Otto T4-CN211N DCS switch mini-review:

 

 

 

For $100, I have mixed feelings about this switch. It requires a heavy activation force when pushed in any direction, which is exactly what I want, but the 4 directions all feel different than each other. Pushing the stick to the left is smooth all the way until it hits the limit of its travel, and I expected all 4 directions to feel this way. However, pushing it up and down requires a heavier force, and has a region where the force gets heavier, similar to how a Cherry brown switch feels different once you get past its activation point. The right side requires an even heavier force than the other 3 sides. Because the switch is weather sealed, there's no way for me to open it to adjust it internally. It feels like there's a big spring coiled around the stick, but is coiled in a way that makes the 4 directions feel different. I'd imagine that in actual use this is not much of a concern, but evaluating it by itself, I feel that it doesn't really feel like it's worth $100.

 

Another thing is that the switch has a very small lip, only around 0.85mm. The catalog states that it's a 11/16" thread, which means a 45/64" clearance hole is needed for a close fit or 23/32" for a free fit. This translates to a 0.2mm or 0.4mm gap around the switch. If you can't get the hole drilled very exactly, it's too easy to accidentally drill away too much due to the low tolerance.

 

Regards.

Hi Ranma13!

 

Thank you for your great post!

 

 

 

I would love to purchase that 4ways switch withthe same "hat" (N-Post type?) ... Where did you orderd yours?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/999-T4-CN211N

Big thanks!

... But something is not clear for me is about the "hat" ...

I ma not sure the "T4-CN211N" is including the "N Post" type (on the bottow left)

For about 111€, I would be sad to order the wrong one. ;)

His picture shows that number on its side as far as I can see. Not Mil grade though.

https://docs-apac.rs-online.com/webdocs/016c/0900766b8016cd0d.pdf

De code of part numbers at the end of page 60.

Got it!

Thanks a lot for your help!

Following this tread. Great Material so far. Any updates?

for any of you with the money an interested in a pro-quality ICP, try to contact this guy,

https://realsimworld.dk/f-16-simulator-shop/center-system-parts/icp-intergrated-control-panel

How are the potentiometers for the wheels mounted? I'm considering one of the Hispapanels kits but the lack of instructions is off putting.

Here's what the 3 panels look like when switches are mounted to it. In the end I only plan to use the front panel, but this gives me a good visualization of how the through-hole switches will look like when mounted:

Ranma13 how far did you get with this? Any updates would be appreciated!

I've abandoned this project due to the high estimated cost, the release of ViperGear's V2 version, the release of RealSimWorld's ICP, the release of the Elgato Stream Deck XL (which has enough buttons to replace the ICP and can be reconfigured for other aircraft), and how little I use the ICP in practice.

To answer the questions though:

I ma not sure the "T4-CN211N" is including the "N Post" type (on the bottow left)

Yes, it's the T4-CN211N, which is the panel mount version. There's also the T4-CN111N, which is used on the real aircraft (and also what the RealSimWorld ICP needs) and is a press fit (a.k.a. friction fit or requires something that can clamp it in place).

How are the potentiometers for the wheels mounted? I'm considering one of the Hispapanels kits but the lack of instructions is off putting.

You're on your own. The Hispapanel ICP kit only gives you the buttons and ICP frame, but you need to find your own PCB and backplate (which is what the potentiometers mount to in the real ICP). The PCB that the Hispapanel kit was designed for is no longer available.

Is there a pcb layout source? I'm going to design with edgecad

This is the PCB that the Hispapanel ICP is supposed to be paired with:

http://psfalcon.blogspot.com/2011/11/ps-cockpit-pcb-system-general-overview.html

I don't have much more info than that.