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JF-17 Thunder Discussions


probad

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Hey guys, some of you must be aware of a proposed JF-17 module by Deka Ironworks of Beijing. While there's a Russian forum topic for it I was surprised there was no English forum counterpart. I suppose it's too obscure an aircraft for some NATO weenies, and Chinese nomenclature is too obtuse to bother with for others, but it's definitely deserving of some enthusiasm, especially as a counterpoint to the F/A-18C.

 

First Deka's work:

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The production values look excellent, I certainly hope they can get this greenlit. China's not known for being open with military information, but the JF-17 being an export offering at least seems like a case for optimism.

 

History:

Long before LanceR and the Bison came around there was Project Sabre II, a Pakistani initiative started in the early 1980s to upgrade its Chinese F-7s (MiG-21FL) with Western avionics. This was encouraged by the US's interest in recruiting Pakistan against Soviet activities in Afghanistan, and made possible due to the thaw in US-China relationships. Pakistan was concerned about India's procurement of MiG-29s, but they were also running a nuclear program, and so they wanted something effective, but cheap. They must have figured it to be a trivial task to drop in Western technologies into bargain bin F-7s, so in 1987 they asked Grumman to study the feasibility of their pitch and this was what they came up with, dubbed the Super-7:

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Calling it a radical redesign is something of an understatement. It was completely rewinged and reengined, so it was very much a different animal altogether. The engine proposed was a PW1120, a development of the F-4's F100, or an F404. As an ironic sidenote, the F404 would see use powering India's Tejas light fighter, the JF-17's nemesis.

 

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Incidentally there was another fighter powered by a single F404 around this time: Northrop's F-20 Tigershark, which had just hit the chopping block less than a year prior to Grumman's study. Some of its avionics would make its way into the Super-7, as well as its windscreen. The nose section could house the F-20's APG-67 but ended up with the F-16A's APG-66. The APG-67 instead would go on to find a home in Taiwan's homebrewed F-CK-1 (not to be confused with the FC-1, aka JF-17), which, in another twist of irony, came about because the US would not allow F-20s to be sold for fear of souring relations with the PRC!

The Super-7 wound up awkwardly close to an F-20 and annoyingly far away from a MiG-21, and Grumman suggested to Pakistan that they'd be better off just buying an existing design. Then in 1989, the political situation turned on its head again with the Tiananmen protests and the end of the Soviet-Afghan war leading into a focal shift to discouraging Pakistan's nuclear weapons tests. This meant the withdrawal of Grumman and the end of the the Super-7, as far as the US was concerned.

 

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China and Pakistan built upon the Grumman study and worked out the Super-7, later called the FC-1, through the 90s. The Soviet collapse left the Russian aircraft industry scrambling to stay afloat, and so Mikoyan wound up enlisted to expedite the development of the FC-1 as well as selling R&D data for their F-16-esque Izdeliye 33.

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The first prototype was rolled out in 2003. These early prototypes are distinguished by fixed splitter plate intakes.

 

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In 2006 the fourth prototype PT-04 was rolled out with the diverterless intakes and much enlarged LERXs seen on production JF-17s. Block 1 LRIP started shortly after in 2007, with Block 2 production originally planned for 2011 iirc but only started at the end of 2013. Officially now it's referred to as the JF-17, JF standing for "Joint Fighter" as opposed to domestic Chinese nomenclature of "Jian" (fighter).

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The JF-17 is comparable to the F-16 in size, being less than one foot smaller in every dimension. Empty weight is around 14,000lb compared to the F/A-18C's 23,000lbs. Internal fuel is 5,130lb, less than half of the F/A-18C's 10,860lb. The JF-17 was initially powered by an RD-93, a derivative of the RD-33s from the MiG-29. China wants to replace the RD-93 with the indigenous WS-13. Static thrust figures vary slightly between sources but generally are in the ballpark of 11,000lbf dry to 18,500lbf wet, comparable to a single F404.

For BFM numberjunkies, TWR is obviously not stellar. A 2x heaters loadout will not likely break 1:1 static TWR until below 80% internal. It should be pointed out that it's nevertheless an improvement on the J-7's 14,550lbf wet output, which has something on the order of 4,500lbs internal gas and won't break even until half fuel.

Block 1 and initial Block 2's do not have any inflight refueling gear, although later Pakistani Block 2's have received a fairly ridiculous looking fixed probe.

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Armament:

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This isn't an exhaustive list for the JF-17's armament. Some weapons of note:

 

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PL-5(E-II)

- The Chinese designation for the R-3/13. Not a lot of information for what the E-II version would be equivalent to, but likely aims to match L/M Sidewinder.

 

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PL-12

- Also seen referred to as the SD-10 for export, this is the Chinese ARH BVR missile. The tailfins have a distinctive forward-swept root. It likely uses an R-77 derived seeker in an 8in AIM-7-like package, so while it looks like an AIM-120 it's something more like an "AIM-77".

 

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MAR-1

- This is an indigenous Brazilian anti-radiation missile generally similar to the AGM-88. 100 rounds were purchased by the Pakistan Air Force.

 

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C-802

- Export version of the YJ-8 anti-ship missile. Visually similar to the Exocet, but it's turbojet-driven like the Harpoon.

 

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LS-6

- This designation encompasses a family of JDAM-ER-esque PGM kits.

 

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Hatf-VIII

- Also known as the Ra'ad, this is a Pakistani air launched cruise missile.

 

The JF-17 has a GSh-23-2 under the port intake in a housing similar to the one on the MiG-21bis.

 

Avionics:

The radar for Blocks 1 and 2 is a KLJ-7 mechanically scanned planar array radar, capable of tracking 10 and engaging 2 with a typical detection range of a MiG-21-sized target around 40nm. It's also got all the standard bells and whistles of a modern multirole radar, including synthetic aperture mode and nominal ground moving target track capability.

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A targeting pod known as WMD-7 has been shown off but doesn't seem to have achieved adoption yet. HMS had been envisioned early on, with a Chinese HMS unit tested in 2006 and Pakistani hoped for fleetwide adoption in 2008, but currently it's been pushed back to (yet another) Block 3 feature.

In terms of defensive aids, the JF-17 allegedly is equipped with a self protection jammer on top of the vertical tail, and a dedicated external EWAR pod is also available as the KG300G. In addition to standard RWR, it has a rear hemisphere missile warning system, located on the base of the vertical tail. Countermeasure count is difficult to assess but at least 36 tubes in a paired array are visible on the dorsal root of the stabilizers with another pair in the corresponding ventral position.

 

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Basically, we have a slightly watered down but still modern redfor multirole aircraft. While it may lack muscle, its got a modern multirole radar and a modern weapons selection. Nevertheless while performance isn't eyewatering, it's not bad either; with bags jettisoned and loaded lightly for A2A it's not exactly slouching. The airframe is rated at a "tame" +8G, but the 14G Yankee yank is by no means the only way to fight and win. Low speed performance will certainly be interesting to explore with consideration to its FBW and massive Super Hornet LERXs.

A lot is going to depend on what Deka can get and provide in terms of systems modelling. While access to JF-17 may not be a stretch of the imagination, data on weapons like the PL-12 may be unprecedented. A targeting pod would be a critical feature for strike missions, and it's hard to say if the WMD-7 could be modeled. The same goes for the HMS.

 

All said and done though, the most interesting part about the JF-17 is its pedigree. For everyone who has wished for a Bison/LanceR module, the JF-17 represents the ultimate ricer Fishbed. For everyone who enjoys the F-5 and wishes for an F-20 module, the JF-17 is a spiritual reincarnation. And by relation to the F-5 lineage, the JF-17 in the end is the bastard cousin the F/A-18 never knew it had.


Edited by probad
improved diagrams
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Thanks for the post. very interesting!

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I've been following the development of this gal on facebook. She looks promising and don't count Westerners "out" of this one. If it flies, we buys... :)

 

I hope this can be achieved as I'd like to see the red side get some modern ASM/PFM aircraft to go toe-to-toe against the NATO ones in the pipe.

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I hope people are going to realize that this is a 'b-tier' cannon fodder fighter. I would certainly give it a go, but I'm gonna go in with a slightly lower expectation of survival. Much like going into a fight now with the MiG-21 or F-5...

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I hope people are going to realize that this is a 'b-tier' cannon fodder fighter. I would certainly give it a go, but I'm gonna go in with a slightly lower expectation of survival. Much like going into a fight now with the MiG-21 or F-5...

 

Modern radar and Fox-3 capable, I think it'll be able to hold it's own. Certainly at least have parity if not superiority over M-2000C.

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I absolutely agree. This is a very interesting jet.

 

Though a lot of questions and negative comments about a more modern jet seem to be common, as it "can't be realistic, because everything is confidential".

Personally I'm looking forward to this.

If we see what technology is used in this platform it might be not that much "confidential" anymore.

 

Definitely something to keep an eye on.

 

Thanks probad for the details and history.

 

P.S. There is a thread on the German forum, as well, for quite a while

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I absolutely agree. This is a very interesting jet.

 

Though a lot of questions and negative comments about a more modern jet seem to be common, as it "can't be realistic, because everything is confidential".

Personally I'm looking forward to this.

If we see what technology is used in this platform it might be not that much "confidential" anymore.

 

Definitely something to keep an eye on.

 

Thanks probad for the details and history.

 

P.S. There is a thread on the German forum, as well, for quite a while

As far as i know, this planes was a project for a modern low cost jet with already existing technologies, i doubt there's something really confidential about this plane

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We didn't make a thread, since it's not quite ready :pilotfly:

 

Texture is still much WIP :smilewink:

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Fox Two :pilotfly:

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I am following this with great interest.

 

First off though, to the OP of the thread: what a great write up! Thumbs up! :)

 

The aircraft itself, on one hand it is quite modern, however it is meant as a low cost export only machine that is used by 3 countries so far, and has as many off the shelf components as possible. Therefore I do have some hope that this may indeed be feasible to model with the expected amount of realism.

 

3d work on the model and weapons are already amazing, however, the real meat of any project that is to become a module would be the programming of systems and flight model, as well as the ability to obtain direct info/permissions regarding the real thing.

 

It does seem the team is aware of that and already working on the flight model.

 

I guess they will wait for ED's ground radar completion to use it if they will be granted the 3rd party licence.

 

I hope this exciting project will come to fruition.

 

BTW thx uboats for the very very cool screenshots above! :)

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ahhh nice, so in the future we will be getting an F20 tigershark ( or at least a foreign copy of it) that never was , but for team redforce

 

:P

 

kidding aside, its interesting choice of aircraft given its not as known or widespread as some 4th gen Russian aircraft or other Chinese Deritivatives of them. but have to admit tis got some alure because of that. And yes its nice team red will have a full fidelity 4th gen and Multi role Strike fighter


Edited by Kev2go

 

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As far as i know, this planes was a project for a modern low cost jet with already existing technologies, i doubt there's something really confidential about this plane

 

true but its understandable why some have skepticism of how realistic this may be. Some countries are just not very open of thier Aircraft developments, even if its its not nessarily state of the art tech or even if becomes obsolete past a certain point.

 

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the bone yard was pick clean the day they went out with the heavy welding gear to plan this cut and shunt :D

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true but its understandable why some have skepticism of how realistic this may be. Some countries are just not very open of thier Aircraft developments, even if its its not nessarily state of the art tech or even if becomes obsolete past a certain point.

 

You're right, however such skepticism is more normal in something really new, not in a Frankenplane like this. Actually secrecy in this case is kinda counter-productive, as it is a cheap plane for export "hey this plane can do this and this for x price, come and check!" So it needs reliable information and marketing in order to achieve what it is meant for, sales. A mid decent package for a low price

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like i said earlier, what i'd be more surprised them obtaining is not so much data on the aircraft proper than the weapon systems, especially for the pl-12 missile, as this is not an obsolete weapon systems but rather current and in service with the plaaf. on the other hand though, what we get may be sd-10s, and it's unknown if, as an export model, there are any significant deviations from the pl-12. though ranges may be different, operational principles and logic will remain the same and that may not be easy to obtain for systems modelling. other weapon systems like the c802 and pl-5 are also common to plaaf, but on the other hand also export variants.

 

stepping back for perspective though, any simulation we get will probably be the most authentic (if not the only) jf-17 simulation available to western enthusiasts -- with chinese aircraft being so rare, im going to take what i can get.


Edited by probad
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like i said earlier, what i'd be more surprised them obtaining is not so much data on the aircraft proper than the weapon systems, especially for the pl-12 missile, as this is not an obsolete weapon systems but rather current and in service with the plaaf. on the other hand though, what we get may be sd-10s, and it's unknown if, as an export model, there are any significant deviations from the pl-12. though ranges may be different, operational principles and logic will remain the same and that may not be easy to obtain for systems modelling. other weapon systems like the c802 and pl-5 are also common to plaaf, but on the other hand also export variants.

 

stepping back for perspective though, any simulation we get will probably be the most authentic (if not the only) jf-17 simulation available to western enthusiasts -- with chinese aircraft being so rare, im going to take what i can get.

 

Actually this is what i suspect, not the plane but the weapons systems.... Anyway if they are the export versions, the better mainly for the "full taste" of an export plane.

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