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Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing


LJQCN101

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It’s incapable of compensating for DA, weight, altitude, static port placement issues. There’s a reason it’s an ‘indicated’ airspeed, not a true or calibrated airspeed.

Now that's a really weird statement. Why should an ASI compensate for weight? If two identical aircraft at different weight are instructed to fly e.g. 250kts, which one would fly at the 'correct' 250kts?

Why should it indicate TAS? Since most stall speed tables are in IAS and an aircraft stalls (in level flight) due to low IAS and certainly not TAS.

 

Looks like you have the wrong expectation of what an ASI should do. (Furthermore there are of course ASIs which indicate TAS and Mach)

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Not even going to answer that comment, I can see your A Little Embarrassed here, your the one arguing with the pro's, because you know better it seems right.

Don't know if you start trolling now or if you are simply posting just to write something.

You are comparing apples and oranges and apparently don't understand (or don't want to understand) anything.

 

Btw, 'Not even going to answer that comment', the standard reply for people who are running out of valid arguments.:lol:


Edited by bbrz

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I thought you were the one trolling here when only arguing with the navy pilots and engineer in this thread, when they were trying to explain to us and (YOU = not understanding) this navy technique to fly any aircraft with an AOA indexer.

 

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Edited by David OC

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David OC said:
One last video, I need more practise with the Su33, haven't use it very much, she is more touchy than the A10 when at (on speed) AOA, that's for sure, interested to see what the F/A18 will be like.

 

The Su-33 response less in pitch with airspeed/AOA change since it doesn't use AOA feedback as F18 does. For instance in F18, if your AOA increased by 0.5deg due to outside disturbance, the FBW will command nose down and it's a pretty big difference between trim AOA and actual AOA as seen by the system.

 

While in Su-33, the FBW is using dynamic pressure as a function to artifically make the aircraft pitch up and down in a large range of airspeed. Suppose your airspeed also dropped by 2km/h due to the 0.5deg AOA increase, it's not a whole lot difference seen by the system and you probably wouldn't notice a mild pitch change immediately.

 

The Su-27 response even less, so it's sometimes necessary to do active AOA control with the stick on these aircrafts.

 

 

Edit in 2021: Seems I was wrong about the F-18 FCS being AOA command in PA mode. Ref:

 


Edited by LJQCN101

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Guys, a quick question in between... Everytime when I try to stay on the GS by pushing throttle forward, i hear the LSO saying "you´re too fast". So how can i stay on GS and hold the correct speed?

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The Su-33 response less in pitch with airspeed/AOA change since it doesn't use AOA feedback as F18 does. For instance in F18, if your AOA increased by 0.5deg due to outside disturbance, the FBW will command nose down and it's a pretty big difference between trim AOA and actual AOA as seen by the system.

 

While in Su-33, the FBW is using dynamic pressure as a function to artifically make the aircraft pitch up and down in a large range of airspeed. Suppose your airspeed also dropped by 2km/h due to the 0.5deg AOA increase, it's not a whole lot difference seen by the system and you probably wouldn't notice a mild pitch change immediately.

 

The Su-27 response even less, so it's sometimes necessary to do active AOA control with the stick on these aircrafts.

 

Like neofightr and ttaylor0024 have been saying all along, Pitch for AOA, if you need to do it, what bbrz seems to not realize is that's the "only thing to chase!" (on speed) optimal AOA, no other reason for pitch, not to go up, not to go down, just ON SPEED AOA.

 

You don't over control it, it will seek it, another word bbrz seems to not understand when flying the back side.

 

Like I said, the Su33 is touchy, I did manage to not touch the pitch, take your time to lock in On Speed AOA in level flight, then start you GS.

 

Try the A10, she is rock solid using the technique, not sure how well modeled the FC3 plane would be in gear down, flaps down config? Not as close as the effort going into coding the F/A-18 FBW I would say, seeing that it is an FC3 plane, try the A10 fight model with this.

 

.


Edited by David OC

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Guys, a quick question in between... Everytime when I try to stay on the GS by pushing throttle forward, i hear the LSO saying "you´re too fast". So how can i stay on GS and hold the correct speed?

That depends on the aircraft you are flying and its immediate pitch reaction to a thrust increase/decrease.

 

In your example it looks like the pitch attitude isn't increasing fast enough on its own so you have to actively increase the pitch attitude to maintain the same AoA (like with most aircraft).

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  • ED Team

Hi all

feel free to discuss this subject, but please do not make it personal.

 

thanks

 

 

thread re-opened

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bbrz,

 

Why does the A10 have an indexer then?

 

What do you call it when I'm using the A-10C's On speed AOA indexer in level flight? Would I be flying the backside technique?

 

It's for optimal AOA, the indexer is a performance measuring instrument, that's what the engineer here has got me to understand. You don't pitch and power as they do in GA aircraft, you want to max perform the aircraft design between lift and power (Any aircraft with its own AOA indexer). What is that then? (On Speed) AOA when on approach speeds, you wave off, gun the throttle hold On Speed AOA until out of the back side and stable again.

 

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

 

So downdrafts and all, you still (hold) On Speed AOA angle (Best aero performance), and use the throttle for GS and lift if need be.

 

This is the Navy doctrine, they use this because THEY have found this to be safest way to land on the carrier, with any aircraft, the aircraft is designed around this also. Pilot workload for landing on a ship, AOA, deck to hook= On Speed AOA, if your high AOA, hook slap (Bad), low in AOA bolter etc.

 

Just right

8875889_orig.jpg

 

 

Retired Land based F/A-18 pilot below, training is different to the Navy pilots doctrine.

 

"the Never ending thread" smile.gif The NAVY do it for a reason, few land based operators use this technique.

 

Adding some grist to the mill smile.gif

 

Excerpt from the RAAF FA18A/B Flight manual

 

.


Edited by David OC

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Guys, a quick question in between... Everytime when I try to stay on the GS by pushing throttle forward, i hear the LSO saying "you´re too fast". So how can i stay on GS and hold the correct speed?

 

 

Because you need to pull or click aft the trim to climb a bit then power back and bit of forward stick or front trim click when back on GS.

 

Every throttle movement to stay on glideslope must be accompagned with a stick movement. Otherwise you will not stay on speed.

The Amber donuts must be ON all the time, if fast or slow is ON it's because you are not responding fast enough with stick to counter throttle movement.

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Because you need to pull or click aft the trim to climb a bit then power back and bit of forward stick or front trim click when back on GS.

 

Every throttle movement to stay on glideslope must be accompagned with a stick movement. Otherwise you will not stay on speed.

The Amber donuts must be ON all the time, if fast or slow is ON it's because you are not responding fast enough with stick to counter throttle movement.

Unfortunately that's something Dave OC refuses to understand and why this is a never ending discussion :(

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Because you need to pull or click aft the trim to climb a bit then power back and bit of forward stick or front trim click when back on GS.

 

Every throttle movement to stay on glideslope must be accompagned with a stick movement. Otherwise you will not stay on speed.

The Amber donuts must be ON all the time, if fast or slow is ON it's because you are not responding fast enough with stick to counter throttle movement.

 

Form what I've tried you generally don't need to chase the On Speed AOA, If you trim correctly for (On Speed AOA) LEVEL FLIGHT in the landing pattern.

 

The aircraft will stay around the On speed AOA as you come on and off the power for GS. The only reason to help the aircraft return to On Speed AOA would be turbulence and wind sheer etc.

 

 

You can see my controls in this video, No pitch, only throttle and the A10 will stay (in the range) of (ON Speed) Green Doughnut by itself, calm weather practice.:)

 

That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.

 

 

Unfortunately that's something Dave OC refuses to understand and why this is a never ending discussion :(

 

You forgot to mention taylor0024 the Navy pilot and the engineer Curly:thumbup:

 

That have always "quoted" and answered "your post" if you look back, to try and explain this to you bbrz.

 

Come on bbrz!

 

We have been trying to explain this to other simmers and pilots that are unfamiliar to this navy doctrine, you are not help here and from the post above you have not read a word or understood what the navy pilots or engineer have said in this whole thread.

 

Start back at page 20 when we were try to help others understand this, well, until the critic turned up and started arguing and twisting the point with navy pilot and engineer. :(

 

Read ttaylor0024's the "Navy pilots" quote above for this answer and that was originally to you by the way.

 

The FC3 jet aircraft could be more unstable to their IRL counterpart? This could be the reason they are more unstable in the On Speed AOA, We don't know how well model the FBW is on the FC3 fighters, they are not the top of the line aircraft here, getting started aircraft etc.

 

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Edited by David OC

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The fun thing here is that DAVID and bbrz are right in their own area.

While you don't need to chase AOA once you established it because the aircraft likes to stay on it (like in David's Video - only throttle for glideslope) every "bigger" correction (you don't fly optimum AOA anymore because of pilot error or weather) need to have both throttle and stick input. If you go through the LSO calls and the action required you find they follow this idea.

 

E.g.

 

fast or slow -> wrong AOA:

“You’re fast/slow.” -> Adjust nose attitude/power to reestablish optimum AOA.

 

and glideslope correction only while AOA is in the green:

“You’re going high/low.” Adjust rate of climb/descent with power to maintain a

centered ball.

 

So as long as your error of AOA is small enough you keep it there. If it gets bigger you need to make a correction with stick and throttle.

 

Sidenote

Even glider fly like this - stick for airspeed (AOA) and brakes or slip ("throttle") for glideslope.

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This has been understood from the start RED, in my first post 2nd Page

 

The problem is that bbzr still has "no general concept" for this navy doctrine whatsoever and has argued with the navy pilots and engineer throughout this thread, go back and look for yourself.

 

Do you fly the with an On Speed indexer RED in your unpowered glider?

 

Have you flown any aircraft using the on speed AOA in "level flight" technique, before you come in for landing?

 

If you are using the stick and throttle to maintain glideslope you are doing it wrong, period regardless of platform. The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA. That is what the pilots are doing in the videos when moving the stick, they are trying to keep that green donut lit and rock steady on the AOA indicator while using the throttle to maintain glideslope by keeping the meatball lined up with the datum lights. That's how it works, period.

 

You still don't need to go after it, the aircraft will still seek it as ttaylor0024 the navy pilot would say. Yes correct if you need to for on speed AOA, turbulence etc, to get it resettled in the on speed AOA quicker, not for GS tho.

 

That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.

 

 

Hay, what do I know? talk to him about if you need to.

 

It just comes down to bbzr arguing with these guy's when not fully understanding how THEY fly, utilizing the On Speed AOA on approach, he probably never used one in his life and has know idea how they work and why?

 

Here is the engineer trying to help bbzr, Curly's his first post with lots of links to NASA etc.

 

I'll re post them here for you.

 

 

Really the best guides to understanding why this technique is used are the primary sources.

 

Aviation for Naval Aviators offers a in-depth expiation in chapter 6.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/00-80T-80.pdf

 

The early NASA document on landing approach speeds does a nice job of explaining as well.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19980232089.pdf

 

And the review on powered approach speeds criteria from Nav Air provides a history of the development of the backside technique in chapter 2. Though the whole thing is worth the read.

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~durham/2002-71.pdf

 

 

 

That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

 

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

 

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

 

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.

 

Is this correct RED for what is being discussed here? NO, well it is in bbzr head.

 

.


Edited by David OC

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The problem is that bbzr still has "no general concept" for this navy doctrine whatsoever and has argued with the navy pilots and engineer throughout this thread...

I'd highly appreciate if you would finally stop posting totally wrong and insulting assumptions.

You are quoting my posts in a random order and out of context so that they make zero sense.

It's almost funny that a non-pilot with obviously very little theoretical knowledge uses the phrase 'we' are explaining something.

 

For the last time: The only thing I disagree with is your claim that you don't need to actively control AoA/pitch on an aircraft.


Edited by bbrz

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I'd highly appreciate if would finally stop posting totally wrong and insulting assumptions.

You are quoting my posts in a random order and out of context so that they make zero sense.

It's almost funny that a non-pilot with obviously very little theoretical knowledge uses the phrase 'we' are explaining something.

 

For the last time: The only thing I disagree with is your claim that you don't need to actively control AoA/pitch on every aircraft.

 

Well I understand this a lot better than you do, that's for sure from your posts.

 

Stop backpedaling and say that you were wrong in most of your assumptions here and you should have listened to the navy pilots and engineer from the start, that was posting this stuff to you "quoting you" so you could understand this better.

 

The context is that you were wrong here and not the man, how about just listening and understand what these naval aviators are try to teach us here and how it's done for real.

 

 

.

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  • ED Team

Guys it is obvious you will not see eye to eye so I would suggest moving on.

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