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Experienced BF-109 pilots - help needed - right roll level flight


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It has been analyzed in depth. As I said, feel free to request a change/file a bug report...

 

You know we're fighting windmills here..

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If the majority of pilots who flew the 109 said it was perfectly flyable @450-500km/h and only after 700km/h the stick would stiffen, who do you think I should trust more, them or ED? Then we can take this into deeper analysis.
Again with that? :doh: I trust the charts, not the pilots which I know only talk about feelings. The charts are actual real measures and if charts (German charts, ahem) says you need X kg of pressure to keep the nose down that's it, there's no room for discussion.

 

 

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You know we're fighting windmills here..

If you want to tell us, that it's totally easy to pull the stick against a force of roughly 7-8 KiloNewton (700-800 kg/m2) at 450 km/h against at least half a squremeter of elevator, with both hands, cramped into the cockpit with your knees bent and against the pedals, we can discuss.

 

Let's assume the elevators give you a counter force of "just" 350 - 400 Kg, I consider a bit of "stiffening" pretty realistic... but that's just my interpretation of the original charts and I may be wrong. :dunno:

 

Source:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

Shagrat

 

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If you want to tell us, that it's totally easy to pull the stick against a force of roughly 7-8 KiloNewton (700-800 kg/m2) at 450 km/h against at least half a squremeter of elevator, with both hands, cramped into the cockpit with your knees bent and against the pedals, we can discuss.

 

Let's assume the elevators give you a counter force of "just" 350 - 400 Kg, I consider a bit of "stiffening" pretty realistic... but that's just my interpretation of the original charts and I may be wrong. :dunno:

 

Source:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

 

I can do that, using pulleys.. the same force is affecting all airplanes. You're saying that the stick column is directly attached to the ailerons??

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Maybe you want to discuss that with Yo-Yo (the programmer of the FM) and provide him with some scientific research and papers proving his documents wrong?

He made a pretty clear statement regarding the stick forces modelling, in the discussion about the Trim options etc. If you can convince him, you are right, he may updates the Flight Model?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3367230&postcount=4

Shagrat

 

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  • ED Team
If the majority of pilots who flew the 109 said it was perfectly flyable @450-500km/h and only after 700km/h the stick would stiffen, who do you think I should trust more, them or ED? Then we can take this into deeper analysis.

 

So how many different reports have you read that said this? I mean majority says you read many reports and most of them said this, can you show some examples of the ones that agree and the ones that don't?

 

ED uses the actual documents from testing and designing of the aircraft AND talks to pilots that have flown them, its not that hard to trust ED.

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I can do that, using pulleys.. the same force is affecting all airplanes. You're saying that the stick column is directly attached to the ailerons??
The construction prints do. As does the remaining planes still flying. Ailerons and elevator connected through steering rods...

So to sum it up: You want the expert engineer from ED that created the flight model, to change it based on your "gut feeling" and your "expertise" goes as far as never ever even having a look at how the controls system of the BF.109 is physically built?!

You gotta be kidding. :rofl:

Shagrat

 

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The construction prints do. As does the remaining planes still flying. Ailerons and elevator connected through steering rods...

So to sum it up: You want the expert engineer from ED that created the flight model, to change it based on your "gut feeling" and your "expertise" goes as far as never ever even having a look at how the controls system of the BF.109 is physically built?!

You gotta be kidding. :rofl:

:thumbup:

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its not that hard to trust ED.

 

Some people always think a developer borks their planes on purpose because in their opinion said dev has a bias against their side. IMO that amounts to sheer boneheadness, but what can you do? Because nothing will make these folks change their mind anyway. Them's the breaks...


Edited by msalama

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i was describing an engagement to my friend earlier today not 5 minutes after it happened, according to my recollections then, i said with confidence my shots missed behind the target by roughly 20-30ft

then i checked my shadowplay footage and saw my shots missed 50ft or so ahead

 

memories can lie very easily

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My hunches are better than the soviet G-2 documents that were used to create the K-4 FM. There are a lot of extrapolations done which are prone to errors. If you blindly trust those, then it's your problem and only yours. There are some of us who like to question things before taking them for granted. I recommend you all do this.. with everything..

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...There are some of us who like to question things before taking them for granted...

Some of us question your hunches. So do I.

LeCuvier

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That's the world's first problem.. instead of questioning the underlying problems, people are using ad hominem to try to discredit pertinent judgement.

How do you prove that the documents used by ED are valid? Ask yourselves this question then try to answer it by using scientific methods. Then tell us what is YOUR answer to that question so we can have a pertinent discussion.

Sorry for the off topic, but I've been challenged to answer to it.

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First, your hunches are worthless unless you provide some unequivocal evidence proving them right. Second, it's not our job to prove ED's sources, conclusions and extrapolations correct or erroneous, but yours, since you're the one complaining. Is that really so hard to understand or accept?

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Documents have been showed, not by me, but by others, and those documents refuted the soviet ones. Someone says we're all wrong, that's it. Do you notice the double standard here??

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My hunches are better than the soviet G-2 documents that were used to create the K-4 FM. There are a lot of extrapolations done which are prone to errors. If you blindly trust those, then it's your problem and only yours. There are some of us who like to question things before taking them for granted. I recommend you all do this.. with everything..

 

The documents you list were just a few of the many used, but also weigh more than your hunches. You can question all you want, but they aren't worthy questions if you have no fact to back up your arguments.

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I'm only half following this debate, so had no idea there were docs presented. Regardless, if Yo-Yo rejected them, that's his prerogative and he must've had his reasons. But double standards? Where and how? I've seen people whining about the P-51 as well and they're not treated any different.

 

Anyway, not my particular war this here so I've no need to convince anyone of anything, and have no need to continue this discussion either. So bye for now & out.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I understand that you, for some reason, want to come across as a haughty b*d again.

 

 

 

Apparently a myth. "It makes a good story, but the very small amount of extra weight on the left tire during takeoff, produced by torque, contributes very little to tire wear."

 

And there're other pretty interesting anecdotes in that article as well, such as being able to take off with your feet on the floor if you knew how:

 

https://captainbillywalker.com/aviation-history-people/nazy/

 

 

 

...has happened to me a couple of times just as you explain, even with less power applied. I augered in every time, so here's again one difference between our experiences.

 

 

 

Huh? No change needed? Not the last time I flew. Yet another difference in experiences.

 

 

 

Huh? Not required? Not the last time I flew. And yet another difference.

 

More anecdotes: another interesting quote as regards engine and prop effects during takeoff. "I had forgotten to use the recommended 6 degrees right rudder trim, but I had applied power so slowly that the torque/P-factor buildup had been negligible": http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepMustangBurch.7.html

 

But I don't know. To wrap this comment up, I suggest you convince Yo-Yo of your being right, and this you can't do without presenting tangible evidence. Just to say that it's EVIDENT because you say so doesn't cut it, regardless of how much you like to tout your superiority. Anyway, I'm not the one to win this debate regardless of what I say, so what says Yo-Yo again? Care to comment please?

 

EDIT: And oh yeah:

 

 

 

You don't? Well THINK on it. Being such a know-all clever guy, you'll undoubtedly get it some day.

 

EDIT2: And since I don't want to come across as another haughty b*d, I'm only really questioning these large differences between our experiences and perceptions flying the DCS WW2 birds, since I'm seeing significant aerodynamical and engine/prop-induced forces at play and am also having to counteract them with large controller inputs. Are you sure you don't have any training-wheel aids accidentally turned on? Because the last time I asked, you couldn't be bothered to answer.

 

No training wheels activated.

 

And that article you posted is pretty damn funny. Mostly trying to justify his friends death. Right rudder causes the left tire to wear? Only an idiot would think that made any sense whatsoever.

 

Again, it is quite simple physics. The motor is turning a large propeller. Newton's third law is operative.

 

Engine torque does not produce yaw. It is a rotational force translated into yaw when the aircraft is in contact with the earth, through the gear.

 

If you apply the power slow enough the takeoff yaw trim will compensate, so the idea of a takeoff with feet off on the floor is not all that surprising.

 

Set the trims to zero and do the same thing and the aircraft ends up in the dirt.

 

DCS P-51 has no torque

 

DCS Bf-109 has some torque but not enough.

 

Are they in a ratio that basically reproduces relative performance? Maybe

 

Are they correct? Not even close.

 

Do internet pilots care? No, apparently not.

 

 

 

 

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DCS P-51 has no torque

 

DCS Bf-109 has some torque but not enough

Do you mean "engine torque", not the other three effects that we usually sum up as torque but aren't engine torque per se?

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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engine no tourqe??

when i fly slow at approach and add to much throttle to get some speed i am all over the place if i dont react correctly :P


Edited by grafspee

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DCS P-51 has no torque

 

DCS Bf-109 has some torque but not enough

 

Well that's the crux of the matter right there. You claim there's no torque, while I'm seeing signficant amounts of it, which compels me to think there's something wrong with your installation. Because if there really was none across the board, I'd sure as hell notice it too.

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Well that's the crux of the matter right there. You claim there's no torque, while I'm seeing signficant amounts of it, which compels me to think there's something wrong with your installation. Because if there really was none across the board, I'd sure as hell notice it too.

 

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Do you mean "engine torque", not the other three effects that we usually sum up as torque but aren't engine torque per se?

 

 

S!

 

That is, indeed, what I mean. In the P-51 there are some yaw effects that happen at various times but nothing that resembles the torque produced by the engine/propeller.

 

The only instance where it is vaguely correct is below 80 mph in a pure vertical climb, when the aircraft briefly rotates about its long axis when at full power.

 

This may be a canned effect. It certainly appears that it is.

 

Engine torque is a constant force countered by the ailerons. Rudder is a secondary method but not nearly as effective since torque produces a rolling moment.

 

So for a given torque level, there must be a equal and opposite control force. The lower the airspeed the greater the control DEFLECTION required to achieve the balancing control FORCE and vice versa.

 

At some airspeed, full deflection is required to counter the torque force.

 

This things are true for ANY single engine propeller driven aircraft.

 

So it follows, that any power change requires a change in aileron deflection and any airspeed change also requires a change in aileron deflection.

 

In the DCS P-51 one can go stop to stop with the throttle and the aircraft will not demonstrate any significant rolling moment. It does some yawing which produces a slight roll but that roll stops after about 30 degrees and the aircraft just wallows around a bit.

 

It is very well known that slamming the throttle to full at slow airspeed in a P51 produces a very dramatic rolling moment.

 

The pilot, in a panic, applies full aileron. This is the classic setup for an adverse yaw event exacerbating the the leftward torque roll with predictably bad results.

 

The DCS P51 does not exhibit any of this behavior and will only drop a wing at slow speed if you actually enter an aerodynamic stall.


Edited by pmiceli

 

 

 

 

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Well that's the crux of the matter right there. You claim there's no torque, while I'm seeing signficant amounts of it, which compels me to think there's something wrong with your installation. Because if there really was none across the board, I'd sure as hell notice it too.

 

The problem is you mistake some yaw effects for engine torque. And it doesn't seem like you are willing to consider that possibility.

 

 

 

 

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