BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Just flew the instant action Nevada take-off. Everything's normal... My guess is, you did not notice the crosswind (6m/s from 77°) , which causes the plane to weather vane into the wind, maybe? To adjust for the crosswind use moderate rudder inputs (nosewheel until 70kts, then rudders are effective and need more careful adjust) and a bit of right aileron... Aircraft don't weathervane once airborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Aircraft don't weathervane once airborne. Yep, correct. In the air the effect is called "directional stability", it does the same as weathervaning on the ground, just not so pronounced. Anyway I wanted to help the guy by pointing to the likely cause of his issue. The wind and the aircraft's tendency to put the nose into the wind. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Yep, correct. In the air the effect is called "directional stability", it does the same as weathervaning on the ground, just not so pronounced. Anyway I wanted to help the guy by pointing to the likely cause of his issue. The wind and the aircraft's tendency to put the nose into the wind. Sorry to push the point, but there is zero tendency for an aircraft in flight to point its nose into wind. The only wind the aircraft sees is the relative wind (airspeed over the wings). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Sorry to push the point, but there is zero tendency for an aircraft in flight to point its nose into wind. The only wind the aircraft sees is the relative wind (airspeed over the wings). If you say so... :dunno: Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylekatarn720 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 @FatSlapper im not sure if you want your problem to be solved or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 If you say so... :dunno: It's not me saying it. An aerodynamicly stable aircraft will only weather vane into the relative wind, they won't weather vane into a cross wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 It's not me saying it. An aerodynamicly stable aircraft will only weather vane into the relative wind. If it has no fuselage maybe or if the thrust or propwash is enough to neglect the crosswind, I guess. In my experience a strong crosswind tends to make the nose yaw into the wind to reduce wind pressure on the fuselage and get the deliberately sleek and aerodynamicly designed fuselage into the wind, especially during and shortly after take off... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylekatarn720 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 It's not me saying it. An aerodynamicly stable aircraft will only weather vane into the relative wind, they won't weather vane into a cross wind. I remembered something when i read your post, maybe this will help in some way. https://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktcock.html Edit: On the other hand i dont know, if an airplane and a rocket tend to behave similarly in these situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 If it has no fuselage maybe or if the thrust or propwash is enough to neglect the crosswind, I guess. In my experience a strong crosswind tends to make the nose yaw into the wind to reduce wind pressure on the fuselage and get the deliberately sleek and aerodynamicly designed fuselage into the wind, especially during and shortly after take off... Once airborne there is no weathervane affect. Do airliners in the jetstream weathervane? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Once airborne there is no weathervane affect. Do airliners in the jetstream weathervane? Of course not. Can you draw a force vector diagram that proves what you are saying? Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) Can you draw a force vector diagram that proves what you are saying? How can a 50kt crosswind overcome 200kts of relative wind once airborne? The only thing the crosswind affects is groundtrack, it has no affect on aerodynamics. Edited June 25, 2017 by BigDuke6ixx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 How can a 50kt crosswind overcome 200kts of relative wind once airborne? Physics... specifically force and counterforce and law of energy conservation. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) Have you never seen aircraft land on a cross wind? Why are we talking about cross wind? Was that the original post problem? Do you realize that and aircraft landing or taking off is in a very different place that an aircraft in a jet stream? Do we know the meaning of semantics right? Edited June 25, 2017 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylekatarn720 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 How can a 50kt crosswind overcome 200kts of relative wind once airborne? It doesnt need to overcome anything unless two forces facing each other on the same course line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 As I said once airborne (the wheels not acting with leverage effect) it gets less pronounced but the force (thrust) applied is usually applied offset to the front or aft of the center of mass and no plane I've heard of has thrust vectoring to apply the thrust directly opposite the wind direction. Thus as little counterforce the wind applies to the fuselage and rudder / tail it will have an effect and yaw the plane around its center of mass, usually into the wind... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I remembered something when i read your post, maybe this will help in some way. https://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktcock.html Edit: On the other hand i dont know, if an airplane and a rocket tend to behave similarly in these situations. Yes, this is what happens, just in the horizontal axis as the typical NASA rocket goes mostly vertical, as the plane goes mostly horizontal through the wind. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 As I said once airborne (the wheels not acting with leverage effect) it gets less pronounced but the force (thrust) applied is usually applied offset to the front or aft of the center of mass and no plane I've heard of has thrust vectoring to apply the thrust directly opposite the wind direction. Thus as little counterforce the wind applies to the fuselage and rudder / tail it will have an effect and yaw the plane around its center of mass, usually into the wind... http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/vectors/plane.cfm Note that the aircraft in the crosswind example doesn't weathervane its nose into the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkBaztard Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ummm.. as I mentioned on page 2 of this thread lol Have you noticed the weaponry on the wings? (more on right wing) Doesn't this make the plane want to roll right? It does for me in this mission and I simply fix with trim! Of course making your own mission will fix this bc you probably loaded NO weapons or a more even spread load-out on your wings.. Am I missing something or ? Seems to be the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/vectors/plane.cfm Note that the aircraft in the crosswind example doesn't weathervane its nose into the wind. Note that the Animation does not show, the pilot using rudder or aileron to keep the nose on course, pointing straight, if he would let the rudder/aileron go, the tail would catch the wind and yaw the plane around the center of gravity resulting in the plane flying a curve into the wind. It is shown in the NASA example by kylekatarn720. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ummm.. as I mentioned on page 2 of this thread lol Have you noticed the weaponry on the wings? (more on right wing) Doesn't this make the plane want to roll right? It does for me in this mission and I simply fix with trim! Of course making your own mission will fix this bc you probably loaded NO weapons or a more even spread load-out on your wings.. Am I missing something or ? Seems to be the answer I think you are exactly rights, it's a trim issue due to an asymmetric payload. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 ummm.. as I mentioned on page 2 of this thread lol Have you noticed the weaponry on the wings? (more on right wing) Doesn't this make the plane want to roll right? It does for me in this mission and I simply fix with trim! Of course making your own mission will fix this bc you probably loaded NO weapons or a more even spread load-out on your wings.. Am I missing something or ? Seems to be the answer Part of the problem, but not the major effect. Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Note that the Animation does not show, the pilot using rudder or aileron to keep the nose on course, pointing straight, if he would let the rudder/aileron go, the tail would catch the wind and yaw the plane around the center of gravity resulting in the plane flying a curve into the wind. It is shown in the NASA example by kylekatarn720. I'm guessing you've never flown a real pane and don't hold a pilot's license. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathervane_effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Part of the problem, but not the major effect. Prove it by having the same payload in zero wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagrat Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Prove it by having the same payload in zero wind. Other way round. Take a clean A-10C add crosswinds of some 6m/sec and don't touch the rudder or ailerons immediately after take off. As I said it isn't as pronounced, but if there is a force (wind) acting on the tail it must shift the tail around the center of gravity. That will put the nose a bit of course unless you apply a counter force (slip/sideslip)to compensate. The wind energy hitting your plane can't vanish... Shagrat - Flying Sims since 1984 - Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDuke6ixx Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) Other way round. Take a clean A-10C add crosswinds of some 6m/sec and don't touch the rudder or ailerons immediately after take off. As I said it isn't as pronounced, but if there is a force (wind) acting on the tail it must shift the tail around the center of gravity. That will put the nose a bit of course unless you apply a counter force (slip/sideslip)to compensate. The wind energy hitting your plane can't vanish... No it's doesn't work liked that. Once airborne the plane has no idea which way over the ground the air mass is traveling. Edited June 25, 2017 by BigDuke6ixx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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