My two cents on F-16 Turn Rate and the EM Diagrams

Good points Skyblazer et Al. I'm really glad to see that all responses here have been helpful and/or mature. Thumbs up.

Skyblazer good points. Important for guys to remember that just because an airplane has the ability to do something doesn't mean that a given pilot is flying to that game plan or has the discipline to.fly to specific parameters without getting buck fever. So there's still ample opportunity for skillful execution to play a factor in the fight. If you're fighting your clone, well, then you have to hope for a mistake to be made.

Do not fall into any kind of authority bias.

You are misusing that informal fallacy:

Authority bias is the tendency to attribute greater accuracy to the opinion of an authority figure (unrelated to its content)

The parenthetical remark is not to be ignored. I will give weight to the opinion of someone with thousands of hours in the real thing. That is not authority bias, that is sound judgement.

No one ever said the DCS F-16 is perfect, after all. Just don't lose sight of the point that complaints about the F-16 vs F-18 rate fight and gloc onset are backed up by a good source.

Cheers!

Right on Rick. Right now, clone v clone would not be survivable in the viper.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

You are misusing that informal fallacy:

...

I will give weight to the opinion of someone with thousands of hours in the real thing. That is not authority bias, that is sound judgement.

Of course we can give credits ... if it is based on factual arguments.

I have a bit more flight hours than him, something about 6000. If speaking about my own aircraft, I can tell you roughly if something is consistent or not. But I would be unable to tell you the exact distance required from brake release to lift off at 28°C, on a 2800ftMSL airfield ... I need the charts for this.

My remark is then "global".

I mean: Do not simply (and sometimes blindly) trust a pilot whatever its rank, experience ... whatever. Especially on computer simulation. There is too much "feeling" into this. One can give "weight" to a 5000+H pilot of course ... but I am somehow "surprised" that he didn't noticed some flaws well known by non F-16 pilots! ...

Of course, you are free to give your trust to whoever you want and I fully understand that it is this man. However, that does not prove that he is right. Personally, while feeling is also something to consider ... I tend to trust facts and figures. Past development also tends to show that is is actually a safer approach:

We have several example where our F-16 driver were wrong and he had to prove himself wrong by looking at actual figures obtained on serious test in flight rather than "a feeling".

IIRC, air-brake efficiency was one of the last case I remember: He said "air-brakes are too much efficient", *we* said "Nope buddy.", he said "Yes brothers", we said "Do the test in flight using xxx protocol, we predict xxx ..." , he said "Ok I'll do the test in flight tomorrow" ... then two days ago he said "Ok guys, you're right."

Something to note: In some cases, official technical manuals/documentations were been proven wrong/out to date. This is to be considered also during development from time to time.

Just don't lose sight of the point that complaints about the F-16 vs F-18 rate fight and gloc onset are backed up by a good source.

Can't tell anything about the F-18. I "do not know" that jet.

Cheers!

After playing in JUSTDOGFIGHT server for all day, and check really good pilot playing F18 and F16 and then look at Tacview after that.

compared F18 with F16 at speed 100 - 500 knots, at any same speed F18 turn rate and radius is better then F16,

if F18 not do really bad mistake, F16 have no chance.

Dont know about IRL but in DCS F18 do better all around high and low speed.

Thanks for some great insight Dances!

And YES, THIS TOTALLY:

 

Lastly, can someone turn up the position lights on the tanker?

 

Dances

Was just browsing this post and thought I would add my 2 cents. I agree that either the F-16 is underpowered or F-18 is overpowered, I think more than likely the F-16 bleeds speed off too fast and should sustain 9g for a bit longer but who knows.

As far as dogfighting between the 16/18...atm, the Hornet will outturn the Viper. But stop trying to fight only a rate fight against the Hornet. You need to use the vertical, high-low yo-yos and superior acceleration to exit and reset the fight. The Hornet might have the best nose pointing ability but you cant be scared to take the Viper down to <200kts before he has too much advantage and then use that acceleration.

The Hornet is not going to keep its nose pointing up at you for very long if you get him slow and accelerate away while climbing. Then come over the top back down for a shot. Its gonna be a tough fight for sure and if you make more than 1 or 2 mistakes it will cost you but its not impossible...

The most important thing I can tell you is that before you ever consider dogfighting in anything or even the F-16, you need to be thoroughly familiar with it and what you are flying against. That means knowing what the visual and audio cues from each jet are telling you as far as AOA/Airspeed and knowing what you can and cant do at any given moment...for me that comes from countless offline flying hours trying to max perform or attemping maneuvers in the plane at a given weight, speed, etc. then reviewing the tacview files and back at it again.

I have won numerous dogfights flying 16v16 in which I was below STR and around 6g with incursions into 8-9g while my opponent was doing his best to max perform and out-rated or out-manuevered him for the kill...meaning he probably didnt know the jet or understand when to perform certain manuevers like he thought he did even though he put up a pretty good fight.

I could go on so much longer about the subject...But it is obviously not quite as simple as that.

104th_Money

104th Phoenix

BFM Instructor

Was just browsing this post and thought I would add my 2 cents. I agree that either the F-16 is underpowered or F-18 is overpowered, I think more than likely the F-16 bleeds speed off too fast and should sustain 9g for a bit longer but who knows.

ED cannot, and will not make Hornet or Falcon to be simulated by accurate flight modeling. They have agreed to make them so that they can not be used to be tested for true performance.

ED cannot, and will not make Hornet or Falcon to be simulated by accurate flight modeling. They have agreed to make them so that they can not be used to be tested for true performance.

That's the true meaning of [Correct as is] :music_whistling:

With Deka being asked to put the cards on the table, why not ED for the hornet?

ED might want to make the Hornet the flagship of their modules, because it can help with the sales of supercarrier and the upcoming maps...

Without diving into numbers I just don't have the time to look up, I initially didn't think the Viper was under-powered (or at least drastically off in this department). I'd be primed to say based on real life Viper V Hornet fights, the Hornet should not be enjoying the rate advantage they have now, so I'd throw my vote into the "Hornet is over-powered" school of thought, but I digress as someone who hasn't flown the Hornet IRL.

However the G-issue of the virtual pilot is complete garbage and is where I think the DCS Viper has it's real world strengths negated. There are countless videos online of the real viper centrifuge G-profile, this should be a very easy thing for anyone who hasn't flown the viper IRL to compare to the DCS pilot modeling. As is, you can't employ the 3-3 rate gameplan in DCS to a credible level. Fix the G-issue and DCS Viper will be closer to the real thing.

Without diving into numbers I just don't have the time to look up, I initially didn't think the Viper was under-powered (or at least drastically off in this department). I'd be primed to say based on real life Viper V Hornet fights, the Hornet should not be enjoying the rate advantage they have now, so I'd throw my vote into the "Hornet is over-powered" school of thought, but I digress as someone who hasn't flown the Hornet IRL.

 

However the G-issue of the virtual pilot is complete garbage and is where I think the DCS Viper has it's real world strengths negated. There are countless videos online of the real viper centrifuge G-profile, this should be a very easy thing for anyone who hasn't flown the viper IRL to compare to the DCS pilot modeling. As is, you can't employ the 3-3 rate gameplan in DCS to a credible level. Fix the G-issue and DCS Viper will be closer to the real thing.

Amen Brother.

ED cannot, and will not make Hornet or Falcon to be simulated by accurate flight modeling. They have agreed to make them so that they can not be used to be tested for true performance.

Then why call it a study level sim? Tongue in cheek of course.. :lol:

As is, you can't employ the 3-3 rate gameplan in DCS to a credible level. Fix the G-issue and DCS Viper will be closer to the real thing.

+1

Can you elaborate on that game plan?

Hi!

There are countless videos online of the real viper centrifuge G-profile, this should be a very easy thing for anyone who hasn't flown the viper IRL to compare to the DCS pilot modeling. As is, you can't employ the 3-3 rate gameplan in DCS to a credible level. Fix the G-issue and DCS Viper will be closer to the real thing.

Not that easy actually. ;)

Many of those pilots are experimented and/or discovering the AGMS tectonics.

To be demonstrative, the Anti-G pant/G-suite is not worn and/or not connected ... or ... not inflated depending on the protocol running.

For instance, when I've made my centrifuge session some years ago, I didn't had my G-suite plugged. Goal we just to discover/refresh the effects, AGMS maneuvers, ... etc ... not to practice/train in full scale.

To model it "correctly" (standard model), the best is to work in collaboration with experimented pilots and mostly with aeromedical technicians/doctors. This is how I made it when working on the subject, helped by the staff of the french air force IRBA institute (Military Biomedical Research Institute) based on Stoll model and adapted to flight simulation.

Regards.

@deadpool DM sent in discord.

Am I doing something wrong here?

Been spending some time on JDF server / reviewing tacviews of my 1v1 and 1vN guns-only fights.

Generally getting to know the limits of the G/TurnRate/AOA and how early to pull lead, abort, etc.

Even at general sweet spot, 390-410kts (HUD), I have rarely seen 21deg turn rate. usually I'm 17-19. (sometimes a barrel roll I can see 23-24 for an instant..dunno why...rudder deflection maybe?). F-18/14/15/M2k are pulling 23+ and I have to extend/reset/yo-yo, etc.

I'm not talking about them at high-AOA/slow-speeds either, where I know that's not my fight... we could both be doing 400ish / holding it, and still I can't match the rate. And this could be from 6G to 9G+, before GLOC... I guess I thought I would have >= 23 degree and able to outrate for a short time before gloc..but can't...

I have zero curve on the axis profiles (T50cm2), just shortened the max from 100% to 75% to get a bit steeper of a profile...

Your sweet spot is too slow. You can achieve instantaneous turn rate of 19 deg/s, with 425 kts but in reality it costs you about 33 kts/sec. Your best Ps = 0 rate is about 14 deg/s. I imagine those other jets are not sustained turn at those rates? Those seem like ITR numbers. At those AoAs they will bleed off airspeed quickly. The DCS Viper is out rated by the Hornet. Which I think we've established is not realistic. But it's what we have right now. So, you just have to treat it like it is, and adjust your game plan.

thanks @000rick000 !

I'll adjust my assumptions next go-around and see how 420s hold up.

Side note, is it impossible to HH (HammerHead) an F16? Maybe the rudder is too small, etc? I cannot stall out and snap-yaw-over... its just more of a flop, and then I'm stuck and lose at least 5k alt trying to get the nose to point down, or worse, stall/stuck and have to hold the pitch override and it takes like 15-20k of alt to recover.

Trying to find the best vertical extend/re-commit approach since I don't have to worry about eating an IR up the tailpipe. If I try to just loop over at say 250-300kts, it takes probably 8k alt to point in right direction and by then I'm usually at co-alt or even below the enemy, losing the alt-advantage-gap I had just created.

thoughts? (sorry to digress this thread).

FLCS controls rudder inputs based on AoA and Airspeed so I think even in CAT I it's regulated, in order to not allow a departure. But you'd have to check the -1 to be sure.

Also it sounds like you're over pulling the AoA to me.

The hornet does not outrate the viper (no pylons) in 2 circle and I have the tacview files to prove it.

Yes, I too, have many of those. Nevertheless and notwithstanding. The man in the crate is.what ultimately counts all else being equal.