M2000 Exterior model improvements

As Razbam is also working on improved exterior textures/models/speculars I thought it would be nice to have also a proper thread for the disscusion so here it comes...also it will be easier for Timghetta and/or other developers to track issues and such.

Cheers!!:thumbup:

Well, the normal maps issue is fixed!!, thanks for this. There are few minor issues remaining in some parts:

Also, the mismatch between these 2 parts of the lower fuselage is present...is subtle most of the time but at certain angles can be very obvious...couldnt find why is happening as the speculars seem to be correct...also happens with other custom specular maps which look perfect in 2.2 version. Here is a pic of the issue with the default (latest) update of the speculars (roughmets):

Also wonder if it would be possible to add roughmets for the pilot's helmet and visor so we can get a reflective material for both...

Thanks for the updates!!!:)

Also wonder if it would be possible to add roughmets for the pilot's helmet and visor so we can get a reflective material for both...

I would like to see the reflection of the sun on the pilots helmet visor as well!

The Mirage is looking great with the new textures!

Yeah, I think that would be the last detail remaining in terms of visuals :)

Btw, some more things I forgot to mention are:

-External fuel tanks (the big ones) have extreme metallic parts that I think are not correct (cant post a pic now and Im not sure whats their name sorry), easy fix but breaks security check.

-Nozzle is too dark and shiny. Also easy fix but same as before.

As a side note, I wonder if it would be possible to have at some point a full template for the M2000...it would be reeeeeally appreciated guys...the Harrier one is superb so I think the 2000 also deserves one ;)

thanks guys for the support!:thumbup:

@Mav783, we can discuss in this thread about adding some scratches to the canopy :)

The reason why it didnt work for you is because now, the M2000 uses the newer "Roughmets" textures so I guess the old "specular maps" are no longer used...so, the canopy still uses the specular tech and thus it didnt react to your changes...

To make it work you need to do few things...rename the "M2KC_3T.tga" to "M2KC_3T" and also rename the "M2KC_3Specular" to "M2KC_3T_RoughMet"...now you can use the "M2KC_3T_RoughMet" as a normal roughmet texture and it will work in game...

However, to add the scratches you will need to edit also the "M2KC_3T" file to adjust alpha, color and such as it will look odd otherwise...of course, the "M2KC_3T_RoughMet" file must also be edited and is there where we will add the scratches...here is where the "artistic" side takes place :P...you will have to play with channels green and blue to get the glass look, though not sire how the alpha works in the roughmet but I also edited it a bit...

After a few tries I got this:

As you can see it doesnt look good enough as there are some more tunning to do but its a nice first try I think and probably the first roughtmet canopy to date?¿?:P

Will try to adjust it a bit more later, is a quite time consuming task for a total PS noob as me :doh: ...you can try to make yours also...If I get a good enough one I will try to upload it :thumbup:

Cheers!!:)

Yeah Waterman ! Thank you ! :) :thumbup:

You made it, nicely, it just lack some scratchs at my eyes, but you made it properly :)

I will try do do this tonight :) Will keep you updated.

Cause this effect on the canopy is really good with the Viggen for exemple, because the scratchs.

It will be anyway better if Razbam can do it, cause every mod from individual corrupt the integrity of the game (integrity check, to fly online)...

And actualy the glass look too perfect.

But, are you sure the issue with the bump map "pixel art style" is fixed ?

I did notice it yesterday i think(?), and also i really noticed lot of noise (light) on reflection in some specific angle and power of light.

Yeah, I think that would be the last detail remaining in terms of visuals

Nop :)

The cockpit from ouside view is not enlighted by instruments in night fly.

As the A-10, the Ka-50, and others...

The pilot (over all) miss speculars maps (i think ?) and maybe bump but i didn't check it since the 2 lastest update.

They also must to fix the to much dark nozzle. It was better before the nozzle :) But changing it alone break the integrity.

Also, the Mirage, comparativly to the Viggen for exemple, lack some texture managing and level of details (textures detail and how different kind of textures is managed and how it look in game, what ever it' is external or in cockpit view).

Definitivly, all modules are not the same quality in DCS. And the Mirage is in the average at my eyes.

After, it's a criticise, but not a bashing ! I love the Mirage and i love that Razbam don't forget to update it ! :)

They can be prood and i love and want to know that we take pleasure to fly in theire planes, and even if it's not perfect, they are improving it !

Ok, here is the final result and the best i could do being quite a noob :P, I adjusted the glass material and added also a slight weathering to the edges of the whole canopy... tried to do it as subtle as possible but at the same time quite noticeable when looked closely...hope you guys enjoy it :)...also, using roughmet for the canopy is great, no more textures are over the canopy ;)

download is attached...it would be great if Tim adds something like this officially ;)

Scratched Canopy m2000.rar

With the last version the canopy is loosing the typical reflective finish of a real canopy.

Now is more opaque, and the brightness is loosed.

This is a very good example of a Mirage 2000 canopy with some scratches but still a reflective finish.

Some more examples with the reflective effect typical of the canopy that is now missing in your last pics.

I really appreciate your effort to introduce some tear and wear to the canopy but IMHO you are loosing more than wining with the changes.

I think waterman did a good job with the scratched canopy but I also agree that the reflections shouldn't be left out and perhaps a little more variation with those scratches.

Perhaps multiple versions would do the job. One with reflections, scratches or one without reflections.

Now if the helmet visor would be completely black and reflective...

And in my opinion the Mirage has one of the best external models in DCS World. In comparison with the Viggen the Mirage has a much more detailed cockpit, texture wise as well.

Good job Waterman !

The only thing is that, for me the scratchs don't shine as it deserve (look at the Viggen in the same condition of lighting to see how the scratch look alive throught the shining).

Maybe that is possible to do with some specular map that i spoke about, and is not managable actually (because not added as a possible/renderable layer on the mesh ?).

Or i don't know :D

But, out of that point, it's really well done ! :)

I will not be able to creat my own today, i'm little buzy and i use my freetime for other deal XD

But, i will try soon maybe.

ps : your "Mirage 2000D like" skin is cool also ;)

I really appreciate your effort to introduce some tear and wear to the canopy but IMHO you are loosing more than wining with the changes.

Why ? More it's realistic and beautiful, better it is :)*

You speak maybe about the integrity check ?

* After, i agree that what is the most important is the FM and the simulation/integration/finalisation of the embedded systems...yes totally. But why not the two ?

And maybe it's not the same people who are working on the technical side and the design side.

Here is my the first attempt regarding the helmet visor reflections. The rest of the helmet is untouched.

However a realistic helmet visor that is transparent and reflective would be a great addition!

Mav, i mean loosing reflections is not worth it. The wear and tear are good but not at the cost of loosing the shine reflections. But is only my personal taste.

Ha yeah, ok :)

Sorry, english is not my mother tong. Ok i understand, yes for sure it's little subjectiv.

And that effect don't look the same on everyplane.*

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Also for Waterman and others, i did check, and it's cool that Razbam did fix the issue about the "pixel art map" ! That great !

After, reflection are little flat comparing to DCS 2.2, but they are super attentive and efficient.

I'm happy to see that Razbam work hard on this Mirage.

Here what i mean by "flat reflection".

Here is 2.2 screenshot, it's not flat (look at the long slim reflection at the back of the cockpit) :

Here is 2.5, and the reflection look more "candy style" or "smooth", it lack the little irregularity of the first screen. The plane look more perfect. The first screen show irregularity and more details and disformation of the plane in the reflection.

I see you coming :)

Yes, in my first screenshot i use a specular map moded. But we was able to see this kind of effects (irregular reflection) even with no mod installed, reflection was more "unperfect" in 2.2 (and was looking less "this is 3D!"), and it was giving a better realistic/photorealism rendering in 2.2 at my eyes. But i speak here only about the way reflection give

cool unperfections and details.

After, what i love, it's that : all the plane is in PBR, and it look cool :)

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But also, i noticed that the lighting of DSC (over all) did change beetwin the 2.2 and 2.5 (in Nevada i mean, the only map we can compare beetwin this 2 version of DCS). In the 2.5, it look less powerfull...at my eyes i mean. Maybe cause it was really illuminated hard in the 2.2 (but i love more like how it was, after i can use filter, gamma, or screen setting to approach almost the same).

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Well, Im glad you overall liked it, thanks all guys :)

About the "reflections" on the canopy, the reason why they look a bit lower is just because I decided to remove the diffuse texture that makes that "lines" reflection effect as I thought if we are now using PBR Roughmets maps is a pity to overlap the real time effects with textures imho...also, it didnt looked good at all at backlight side so I think it looks much better this way...a different thing are the direct light reflections (the sun shining into the glass) which might need some more adjustments...I will try to increase it a bit and see if I can make the scratches to shine a bit more :thumbup:

Here is my the first attempt regarding the helmet visor reflections. The rest of the helmet is untouched.

 

However a realistic helmet visor that is transparent and reflective would be a great addition!

Damn buddy, you got ahead with the helmet's visor :P, I was also working on it...looks great already mate!;)

Mav, i mean loosing reflections is not worth it. The wear and tear are good but not at the cost of loosing the shine reflections. But is only my personal taste.

Did you tested the files mate?? because reflections are there!!:)...you need to test it in movement to really know how they look...I think that "loosing reflections" sounds a bit exagerated dont you think?...the only thing missing is the texture with the "pre-baked" lines simulating reflections but as I said, will try to make it better asap.

Btw, I have been working also in many other nice things!!, It has been a quite a exhaustive task but Im almost done... will share soon! ;)

Cheers!

Yes, i've tested in movement, and as i said, It seems a bit like a opaque canopy exposed to much to weather outside. But is only my personal prefference. I Hope you are able to improve it with the best of both, scratches and a clean reflective surface.

Yep i'am not sure that modifiying a roughmet will give that deep reflection.

It affect reflection but don't "create" it.

Look how the scratch shine on the Viggen :

Almost sure it need to be managed through specular no ?

after i will try to play with color (green and purple) in the roughmet map :)

The Viggen has the perfect finish IMHO

At my eyes also. And it's not only subjective. Over all, the Viggen enjoy of a verry strong details and finish, in diffuse textures and also effects textures. But not all module have that. After the Mirage is, at my eyes, in a good average, and in constant progress :)

I have been testing the Viggen specular map and decided to directly use it (adapting to the m2000) in the mirage...the result is this:

which is quite close i think:

However, I must say that I dont like the viggen effect at all...imho, its waaaay overdone and unrealistic. In real life, canopies use to have (like many other "glass" kind materials) only MICRO-scratches...in the case of the viggen, those scratches seem like done on purpose and most of them are like 40cm long...this is not happening in any viggen picture I have seen but in the case of the M2000 even less as all pictures I could find have a quite polished surface just with some minor MICRO-scratches not visible pretty much at any condition and only when really close to them.

So, after and insane amount of time and tries I think that the best I could achieve is a mix of micro scratches with some bigger ones...also, adjusted reflectivity amount. the result is this:

It looked quite better in PS, but because I were stupid, I saved without applying some noise filter and after closing the program compression reduced both, resolution and dynamic range so I guess it is what it is :doh:..anyway I think it looks quite nice and close to what you could expect in a m2000 in real life. ts subtle but its there if you zoom in.

You have both files to use at your discretion (the viggen like and the more realistic one)

Also, I would like to say something about the reflection as Esac mentioned before...if you think the viggen has a "perfect finish" I think that it has pretty much identical reflectivity than the file I made for the m2000:

the effect that is usually visible in the mirage 2000 of the "straight lines", depends a lot of the evironement being reflected...once you use PBR materials, is the engine which renders the material according to the real environement so, although it looks like there is some less reflections, now it looks more accurate than before when some effect were pre-baked in textures...however, some discrepancies are expected respect real life of course as real life is much more complex than what PBR rendering can achieve so for instance the reason why the "lines" are missing is because the sky is completelly clear in game, or even with clouds, they are not being reflected right now...only full overcast has an impact in how the glass is rendered and so those "lines" reflection do appear in fact:

Also made some Roughmets for the Helmet, visor, and whole pilot body :):

I will make a mod with these things, mean while attached are the viggen like files for the canopy (will try to do again the other file to have good quality).

Cheers!!:)

M2000 canopy viggen style.rar

As i´ve told you is a question of personal taste.

You dont like the Viggen finish. I like it, even your last version " viggen style" for me looks way better than the first version, but is only my personal prefference. Nothing wrong with that.

Some pics to show my point.

If you really think your first version looks like the Viggen Canopy i have a problem with my computer screen.

Guys !

I love you both !

Good job :)

Nice Waterman...and...how you know you should pass the glass of M2KC_3T in white in case of the original gray shaded ?

I LOVE you to. XD.

Really, not a single problem on my side. Im only posting my personal taste and i really appreciate his work on specular maps, textures, etc. I have beeing using his modified speculars for a long time on the M2000 because they are superb.

:D

Yep he done good. And he his working or have a hobby about this kind of job (graphic) no ?

Anyway, now Razbam need to do what he did for the Mirage to be able having this effect without breaking the integrity :) XD

Thanks for the kind words guys!, they are very appreciated :)

No problem with the tastes Esac, I understand ;), just was surprised about how reflectivity was pretty much the same in the viggen while you said there was less in the M2000...btw, I never said that the first attemp was intended to imitate the look of the viggen, just add some scratches to the M2000 canopy, thats why it looks so different.

About the "Nice Waterman...and...how you know you should pass the glass of M2KC_3T in white in case of the original gray shaded ?"...I think the original is more blue but I removed it because that way, the opacity doesnt have any texture interfering with the PBR roughmet which I think is much better...also, white color looks much better in more conditions like overcast, which looked odd in blue color...anyway, it doesnt have a very big impact.

Well, I had to re do the whole thing again, but I think this is the one I like the most...balanced between scratches amount, size, dispersion, variation, intensity, etc...also refined the very thin weathering line along the edges of the canopy which uses to be there in canopies in general...One more thing these files add is glass material for the nav lights and the police light (the inner glass cover, not the external one) which looks cool :)

hope you also like this one and to cover more or less everyones taste. Choose the one you like most ;)

About the integrity check, yeah!, is a pity not to be able to play online when using these things :cry:, as you said Mav783, maybe Timghetta has the time to implement more improvements like this one (which surely he will make MUCH better than me).

Will upload the pilot, helmet, etc files later through the users files section as they are too big to post here.

Bye mates!!:thumbup:

M2000 canopy scratches balanced.rar

I think this last version is the best of all you have posted. Is balanced having good things in reflective finish, scratches and clean aspect.

Is a good compromise.

Thanks waterman