[NO BUG] Far too easy to over G the plane with no feedback.

Why are you doing M 1.6 on the deck? Is it even ment to handle that stress?

+1

Your problem is right there xD Fighters only go super as a last ditch effort to catch up on an intercept they would otherwise miss or to get out of a bad situation ( BUG and leave the fight asap). Both of these things are accomplished in a straight line.

If you are going to turn at supersonic speeds, use pressure on the stick, not deflection.

Otherwise you should stay at mach .75 ish to marshal around and .95 if you want to go fast. In a turning fight bring it down to 350kts.

As discussed, yes I agree at low speed, but not at high speed. Most cues are due to pulling high AoA, and you can over-G at low AoA at high speed. And at high speed small stick deflections will produce very large G forces very quickly. You don't need to be ham fisted at all.

In which case refer to my part solutions for instantaneous G generation, as these issues revolve primarily around the short-throw nature of physical gaming joysticks than an issue with in-game modelling.

So my argument is that "blacking out" in the sim is already a completely unrealistic 'game' mechanism.

That's a hell of an argument. In reality, blackout effects the visual cortex by the initial greying, tunnelling and ultimately complete blackout of vision. Given that ED seems to model this pattern reasonably well (I'd argue that the visual black-out should not lead to a G-LOC situation as in reality there is a threshold during which the pilot cannot see but is still compos mentis which doesn't appear to be the case for EDs) what do you feel they got wrong?

It's a visual effect that can be simulated, so why not simulate it?

I'm sure it's nothing like blacking out for real

Says someone who's never experienced it.

it's a simulation to compensate for the lack of a realistic effect.

Isn't everything inside a publicly available flightsim?

Since we're already doing that, we're already including a compensation mechanism .. why not change it slightly to give some of the feedback you do get in real life?

Not if I don't agree with your primary argument.

...

I don't think we're likely to agree here, we probably just have different perspectives :) I've had this argument many times on a range of different topics, and the question is very old and longstanding within the flight sim community. Different people in the community have a different points of view, and different sims have taken different paths based on those points of view.

Some people think that flight sims should only model realistic mechanical systems. They argue you can't model things like the feeling of G effect that a real pilot experiences, so why try? Yes, this might produce unrealistic effects in the sim (like it being really a lot easier to break the wings than it would be in the real plane) but that's just a shame.

Other people (such as myself) think that flight sims should aim to produce realistic outcomes. It's feels very strange to see people breaking their wings all the time (it happens on DCS WWII servers constantly, on some of the DCS WWI planes it's such a big problem it's become the dominant way to defeat them) and we want to see a realistic simulation of the scenario. Real pilots didn't break there wings all the time, so they shouldn't in DCS either. So if something is missing (such as sensation of G) that is causing that problem then it's reasonable to adjust things like black-out mechanism, or the modelling of stick forces and pilot strength, to give better feedback to produce as realistic outcome as possible. The thinking goes: the black-out mechanism is completely an approximation anyway, who could even say what the "most realistic" blackout model would be ... so why not change it to produce more realistic effects and give the virtual pilot at least something close to the feedback a real pilot would get?

No one is ever going to convince me my perspective is "wrong": to me it's extremely frustrating that the sim produces such an unrealistic outcome (like that it's really easy to break wings). Some sims, such as IL2 BoS and Falcon 4 have tended to agree with my opinion and have been willing to add more compensatory mechanisms, and to adjust things like how blacking out works to give the pilot better feedback. Likewise, I don't imagine I'm ever going to convince you of my perspective. You probably see my argument as wanting to add something "gamey" and unrealistic, you see trying to change the black-out model to give feedback and dislike the idea of changing it for that reason. I think what you advocate is more gamey and unrealistic ... I see entirely unrealistic outcomes, that would never happen in the real world, servers full of WWII battles with pilots breaking their wings left, right and centre. We just see the world differently :)

A halfway house: maybe a noise of a pilot grunt or similar when passing up through, say 5g to indicate the discomfort of the manoeuvre?

I don't think we're likely to agree here, we probably just have different perspectives :) I've had this argument many times on a range of different topics, and the question is very old and longstanding within the flight sim community. Different people in the community have a different points of view, and different sims have taken different paths based on those points of view.

 

Some people think that flight sims should only model realistic mechanical systems. They argue you can't model things like the feeling of G effect that a real pilot experiences, so why try? Yes, this might produce unrealistic effects in the sim (like it being really a lot easier to break the wings than it would be in the real plane) but that's just a shame.

 

Other people (such as myself) think that flight sims should aim to produce realistic outcomes. It's feels very strange to see people breaking their wings all the time (it happens on DCS WWII servers constantly, on some of the DCS WWI planes it's such a big problem it's become the dominant way to defeat them) and we want to see a realistic simulation of the scenario. Real pilots didn't break there wings all the time, so they shouldn't in DCS either. So if something is missing (such as sensation of G) that is causing that problem then it's reasonable to adjust things like black-out mechanism, or the modelling of stick forces and pilot strength, to give better feedback to produce as realistic outcome as possible. The thinking goes: the black-out mechanism is completely an approximation anyway, who could even say what the "most realistic" blackout model would be ... so why not change it to produce more realistic effects and give the virtual pilot at least something close to the feedback a real pilot would get?

 

No one is ever going to convince me my perspective is "wrong": to me it's extremely frustrating that the sim produces such an unrealistic outcome (like that it's really easy to break wings). Some sims, such as IL2 BoS and Falcon 4 have tended to agree with my opinion and have been willing to add more compensatory mechanisms, and to adjust things like how blacking out works to give the pilot better feedback. Likewise, I don't imagine I'm ever going to convince you of my perspective. You probably see my argument as wanting to add something "gamey" and unrealistic, you see trying to change the black-out model to give feedback and dislike the idea of changing it for that reason. I think what you advocate is more gamey and unrealistic ... I see entirely unrealistic outcomes, that would never happen in the real world, servers full of WWII battles with pilots breaking their wings left, right and centre. We just see the world differently :)

I hear ya man, I just don’t want to waste the energy debating on a forum about it, I’d rather just go play the game :joystick:

I think your arguments are all well thought out and make sense though.

I don’t pull the wings off often, but if I do it is usually during a prolonged turn with an insidious increase in airspeed, like coming over the top slow and pulling out of the dive. Your eyes are out on the bandit, holding light buffet, and airspeed is increasing faster than you realize. Without the feel of the increasing G in the seat, the sound of the air rushing, etc - you don’t realize your G is increasing until the wings snap. G-LOC should be kicking in during this kind of sustained turn and progressive G increase, but I’ve hit enough G doing this without the grey out cues to snap the wings.

I’m all for the 5-6G “grunt”

Yep, all sims haave limitations, but bad piloting should always be rewarded by bad results.

In my opinion the pilot should at leas makes some breathing noise or something just to tell as that he is under stress. Anything that tell us as computer chair pilots that the simulated pilot is under g's... Maybe a breathing sound that starts at 4G's like the Mig-29t. That would'n be unrealistic... now, watching the G needle on a dogfight... I doubt that that is a realistic procedure.

In my opinion the pilot should at leas makes some breathing noise or something just to tell as that he is under stress. Anything that tell us as computer chair pilots that the simulated pilot is under g's... Maybe a breathing sound that starts at 4G's like the Mig-29t. That would'n be unrealistic... now, watching the G needle on a dogfight... I doubt that that is a realistic procedure.

We already have blackouts and heavy breathing plus the Tomcat frame-bending sounds, what do you mean?

That's the way it is with these older planes. You have to learn to fly them smoothly. Flying around on full burner and trying to pull tight turns will not have good results.