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No limitation on MW-50?


J13 Serenity

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J13 Serenity is right.

I tried it on default map, i think with 20°C, and plane flew with MW ON and engine setting 2800/1,8 until MW tank was empty.

It took slightly more than 30 minutes, after 25-26 MW pressure started to go down slowly and after 30 engine started to shake because MW pressure was too low.

I flew mostly above 500km/h, for several times i slowed down under 400km/h.

Oil and coolant temperatures were on theirs upper limits the whole time.

 

IMO something here is wrong...

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  • 6 months later...

Anything about this troublesome bug?

MW system of 109 seems to be totaly unrealistic, but contrarily to MW of 190...

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This probably has to do with the “thermodynamic engine model”. You can usually vastly exceed the officially listed time limits in all the warbirds in dcs. It’s better than setting time limits till an engine explodes as the other sim does it, but obviously it discounts the fact that irl you would have to use the engine again and as such would significantly reduce the service life of such an engine by abusing it in that way.

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No one here is asking for engine dead during 11th minute MW running...

 

This probably has to do with the “thermodynamic engine model”.

No probably but definitely!

 

If i fly 25 minutes with MW ON with speed range betwen 375 and 550km/h TAS and ends with several 360° turns at speed 450km/h TAS and my coolant flaps are nearly close, then yes, it is conected with “thermodynamic engine model”.

 

Question is if it is modeled yet or it is modeled oposite way?

 

When engine is running with MW ON, it consumes (burns) more fuel, and it means increased temperature, not decreased...

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No one here is asking for engine dead during 11th minute MW running...

 

I didn't think you were :P .

 

I don't know if its accurate or not either. Its hard to say when and how exactly an engine like this will fail, and is obviously very dependent on a large number of variables. Even with pilot reports or stories, you never know the entire story about what condition an engine was in or what the pilot or other pilots did to it beforehand. Engines (as well as anything else designed by Engineers) are designed based on assumed loads and usually with a certain safety margin. Basically the engines are designed to last x number of flying hours before being replaced/overhauled, but since we get a brand new factory fresh, perfectly manufactured and maintained engine for every flight we can abuse our engines alot more than the manual says we should and get away with it.

 

MW also has a certain cooling effect on the engine obviously, which may help things here...

 

Maybe we will see some improvements in this area with the new DM? I have always felt like you can get away with being quite lazy as far as taking care of your aircraft/engine in DCS, and ignore all sorts of IRL procedures or not ever bother checking temperature gauges. Even when flying manual prop pitch and overspeeding the engine a bit by accident doesnt have much effect as long as you dont do it too long. Ive flown the mustang with a broken governor for 10 minutes with 4500rpm as well..... Funnily enough back when I was very new to DCS I managed to break the engine in the 109 quite regularly, but as I got better at flying it seemed to happen less and less... Same thing with the Mustang for me. I don't think anything changed with the modelling though (except in the spitfire, which used to overheat much more easily).

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I just think, with my limited knowledge about it, that MW 50 on DB605 is not correctly simulated.

And I'd rather hear something from ED, doesn`t matter if i am correct or not.

Only ask for, it is OK because.. or we will check it.

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The test stand runs of the DB605 DB/DC showed that the engine could run on MW50 for 40 mins straight with lower stress on the engine than without. The cooling requirements with MW50 injection at 1,8 ata were pretty much the same as without it at 1,45 ata.

 

I currently cant find the document, but I found one for the DB605A vs AM engine. This chart compares the cooling of 1,3 ata vs MW50 1,7 ata. The K-4 had increased oil and water cooling capacity over the G models btw.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=108157&d=1417348418

 

 

Btw: I see no reason why it should be any different for the Dora if the cooling capacity was enough for standard max boost. MW50 will increase detonation resistance and decrease combustion and exhaust temperature. There is basically no negatives except the weight of the injection system and MW50 itself.


Edited by rel4y

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I've watched/read several interviews that asked about this and pilots always said they could run the MW50 until it ran out. The "limitation" is an engineer established "limit" not a hard limit. I vastly prefer it that way than some sims I've seen (TF I'm looking at you) that want to bake the engine after a few minutes. That's not realistic and just comes from following numbers on a spec sheet somewhere with little/no reasoning or research behind it.

 

@saburo

 

"I just think, with my limited knowledge about it"

That's kinda the problem. The people who code this stuff have more than "limited" knowledge on it. You actually need some hard indisputable info if you want to challenge anything you see. "I feel" and "I think" are irrelevant.

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There is something wrong with the 109 in regards to engine over heat. I sent a track ages ago to nineline, where i was on 1.8 MW50 climbing holding a speed of around 150KM/h +/- and i got to over 6K from deck which at that speed took a while and then gave up because i got bored and it didnt overheat.

 

Came nowhere even close at roughly same speeds in Dora and 51.

 

 

But ED doesnt really care, look at the Dora, MW50 been borked now for well over a year!

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There is something wrong with the 109 in regards to engine over heat. I sent a track ages ago to nineline, where i was on 1.8 MW50 climbing holding a speed of around 150KM/h +/- and i got to over 6K from deck which at that speed took a while and then gave up because i got bored and it didnt overheat.

 

Came nowhere even close at roughly same speeds in Dora and 51.

 

 

But ED doesnt really care, look at the Dora, MW50 been borked now for well over a year!

 

Absolutely, but also dont forget the time when you took off and landed with closed radiators......closed radiators doesnt this thing over heat.

 

as for the Dora i honestly believe that you dont know what is causing the problems with the MW50. for christ sakes it has gone on long enough.

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What's the MW 50 supply in the K-4? in the earlier 109s with the DB 605 AM engine it's around 27 minutes of supply IIRC

 

Without MW 50, with B4 fuel the engine should get damaged quickly at the 1.8 ata regime.

 

It’s better than setting time limits till an engine explodes as the other sim does it, but obviously it discounts the fact that irl you would have to use the engine again and as such would significantly reduce the service life of such an engine by abusing it in that way.

 

Btw the time limit system you mention has a bit of leeway which is randomized, up to 50% if you are lucky, so it isn't that bad imho.

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I've watched/read several interviews that asked about this and pilots always said they could run the MW50 until it ran out.

Would you so kind and share some of them with as?

If you add Frank Walker`s comparison water injection coolant effect between their and Germany system, that would be great.

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Would you so kind and share some of them with as?

If you add Frank Walker`s comparison water injection coolant effect between their and Germany system, that would be great.

 

Is it a video your talking about, where can it be found? But why should Frank Walkers analysis disagree? He basically ran WEP with ADI on his R2800 testengine for 100h straight on a regular basis. PW used intercoolers in their engines and injected the MW or EW into or after the carb while the germans injected into the supercharger. That should lead too a smaller water charge cooling effect in the PW engine since the air is already cooled and evaporation is decreased. Internal combustion effects are unchanged even though the DB uses DI. The germans increased the oil cooling capacity on these late ADI engines and encountered no cylinder head overheat which I think was a problem with the R2800.

 

However, the basic ADI effects stay the same on both systems: less detonation, charge cooling, lower combustion temp, higher mean pressure, lower exhaust temp, less carbon buildup.


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

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Would you so kind and share some of them with as?

If you add Frank Walker`s comparison water injection coolant effect between their and Germany system, that would be great.

 

Just Google the interviews with Franz Stigler, they asked him about several common flight sim tropes like MW50, use of combat flaps in turns, and flaps for takeoff (TLDR: no restriction, they didn't use them, and they didn't use them unless carrying bombs)

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I've watched/read several interviews that asked about this and pilots always said they could run the MW50 until it ran out. The "limitation" is an engineer established "limit" not a hard limit. I vastly prefer it that way than some sims I've seen (TF I'm looking at you) that want to bake the engine after a few minutes. That's not realistic and just comes from following numbers on a spec sheet somewhere with little/no reasoning or research behind it.

 

sounds good, gonna check on the vids

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Interview with Franz Stigler on The 109 Lair

.

.

How long did it last?

Uhh…you were not allowed to have it at more than 5 min., you know…if you used it 10 minutes, then motor has to come out.

 

It makes the engine worse?

It wrecks the motor.

.

.

 

My opinion is that running MW 50 On for 25 minutes without interruption in non-ideal condition without any engine trouble is not perfecly correct.

How does above mentioned part from interview go agains my opinion?

 

And i am NOT asking for engine dead after 10 minutes MW running! (10 minutes was allowed in manual)

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http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler_p2.htm

 

This is one of the interviews, now here he says the boost would fry the engine after a few minutes. He comments further you could use all of it just not more than a few minutes at a time. I'm intrigued now... this isn't the only interview I read but it's the only one I'm readily finding now (I once researched the Brown / Stigler story). I'm almost 100% certain he made comments in line with my earlier references in a different interview. I can only shrug and say I don't know atm, if I find amything else conclusive I'll pass it on.

 

You ninja'd me =)

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With all due respect, I highly doubt that Stiegler is correct and or has experienced a failure due to prolonged use of ADI. Id like to hear one scientifically sound reason why prolonged MW50 use at rated boosts would damage the engine beyond normal. This is completely irrational to me.

 

If you could run the the DB605 on C3 fuel without limit at 1,8 ata please explain to me why it shouldnt on B4 + ADI. There is simply no way that if the same engine that could tolerate 1,98 ata and even 2,3 ata at the Daimler Benz teststand, cooling would be insufficient at 1,8 ata + ADI which actually makes the engine run cooler. You have to change ignition timings, but thats it.

 

From an engineering pov the only engine part that is stressed beyond normal is the supercharger, because water droplets will cause damage at these really high rpms. The only other downside I can think of is corrosion through water, thats why there is always a fraction of oil added.

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Well, like I said, I'm 99% sure he said something different in another interview I'm not finding now. The 109lair one is poorly formatted, too =/ It's possible the other ones are lost now, I'll keep searching. Might have been a different pilot too, I just came across it while researching Stigler

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http://www.calum-douglas.com/

 

Link to an upcoming research project / book that I think will provide more insight into the engineering and capability of ww2 German recip engines than anything that's out there now. A must have item IMO if you are fanatical about this subject... I know there's a few of you out there lol.

 

It should provide a lot more insight into the actual performance and durability of late DB605 motors, as there seems to be a big information gap between known charts of projected performance, and anecdotal pilot reports. i.e. - no actual flight test data available to the public.

 

In current news, it looks like 1.8 and 1.98 ATA 109s will be represented soon in the Bodenplatte addon to IL2 Great Battles series, that will be interesting.


Edited by Barfly
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With all due respect, I highly doubt that Stiegler is correct and or has experienced a failure due to prolonged use of ADI. Id like to hear one scientifically sound reason why prolonged MW50 use at rated boosts would damage the engine beyond normal. This is completely irrational to me.

 

G14 high altitude variants running DB603 compressors had reduced engine life due to excessive cylinder bore wear, like down to 15 hrs or so before replacement - AFAIR. Those were 1.7-8 ATA boost, so its not unreasonable to assume that a DB605D would suffer similar wear as a result of "excessive use of MW50". There was a severe shortage of hard metals at that time, so it can't necessarily be assumed that newer 605s were 'hardened' for higher boost durability. It may have happened, but I doubt it. Engine use limits in operating manuals seem to have been established as a projection / expectation before the actual motors were fully developed.

 

Of course you have inexperienced pilots abusing the motors, or the motors weren't properly broken in, various POL quality problems affecting output and durability etc. I'm SURE that loss of cylinder compression as a result of cylinder bore deterioration was a real problem, and was mentioned in several sources, which I am too lazy to rediscover, lol.


Edited by Barfly
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