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Not sure if its the F-86 or the MiG-15....


Capn kamikaze

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The DCS Damage model doesn't have the level of details that could be effectively damaged by .50 cals. They are working on it as far as I've heard.

 

its greater problem with AI.

 

I don't ever recall a player flying a damaged aircraft as well as an AI does

 

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Ya, "Trustee" is an understatement. Especially since damage modeling to that gun doesn't exist in DCS. Sure I'll take any gun that CANNOT be knocked out over any gun that can. One shot to the nose of Sabre knocks out guns, windshield and gun site.

 

How many times has your canon been knocked out of commission from being damaged....the answer...never...because the code does not exist in DCS. How many times has you Mig's cockpit glass been shot out and your gun sight knocked out....never....becuase the code does not exist.

 

Ya, all those 50 it takes to knock you down must be accurate as well. It's not taking a ton of 50 cal shells...the problem is they are all missing from warped gun barrels that didn't exist.

 

I love how Mig pilots try to tell me "you didn't hit anything vital" after looking at their own plane. Of course, you didn't see me hit anything vital....for the Mig, only the wings are set up to show damage.

 

Here is direct code taken from F-86 and Mig-15 Lua files in the damage section.

 

F-86F

 

DamageParts =

{

[1] = "F-86F-oblomok-wing-R", -- wing R

[2] = "F-86F-oblomok-wing-L", -- wing L

--[3] = "F-86F Sabre-nose", -- nose

[4] = "F-86F-oblomok-F3", -- tail

 

 

Same Section from Mig-15 Lua

 

DamageParts =

{

[1] = "MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_R",

[2] = "MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_L",

 

 

Where's the rest of the damage for the Mig????

I know the damage module is ****ed but you know in real life the us understood after the korean war that .50 is useless in AA fights so its not only the damage module

 

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Here is direct code taken from F-86 and Mig-15 Lua files in the damage section.

 

F-86F

 

DamageParts =

{

[1] = "F-86F-oblomok-wing-R", -- wing R

[2] = "F-86F-oblomok-wing-L", -- wing L

--[3] = "F-86F Sabre-nose", -- nose

[4] = "F-86F-oblomok-F3", -- tail

 

 

Same Section from Mig-15 Lua

 

DamageParts =

{

[1] = "MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_R",

[2] = "MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_L",

 

 

Where's the rest of the damage for the Mig????

 

This isnt the Damage Code.

 

This is a List of 3D parts to load,

 

So When you blow a Wing Off, it will Load MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_R.edm to drop part of a wing in free fall from the aircraft

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=156897&stc=1&d=1486653621

 

 

This is the Actual Failures/Damage Code for the MiG-15:

Failures = {
	-- electric system
	{ id = 'es_damage_Generator',	label = _('Generator FAILURE'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'es_damage_Starter',		label = _('Starter FAILURE'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'es_damage_Battery',		label = _('Battery FAILURE'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	-- fuel system
	{ id = 'fs_damage_TransferPump',	label = _('Fuel Transfer Pump FAILURE'),	enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'fs_damage_BoosterPump',		label = _('Fuel Booster Pump FAILURE'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	-- hydraulic system
	{ id = 'hs_damage_MainPump',			label = _('Main Hydraulic Pump FAILURE'),			enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'hs_damage_MainAccumulator',		label = _('Main Hydraulic Accumulator FAILURE'),	enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'hs_damage_MainAutoUnload',		label = _('Main Relief Valve FAILURE'),				enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'hs_damage_GainPump',			label = _('Booster Pump FAILURE'),					enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'hs_damage_GainAccumulator',		label = _('Booster Accumulator FAILURE'),			enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	{ id = 'hs_damage_GainAutoUnload',		label = _('Booster Relief Valve FAILURE'),			enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	-- oxygen system
	{ id = 'os_damage_BalloonLeakage',		label = _('Oxygen FAILURE'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
	-- power plant

	-- air system
	{ id = 'as_damage_Depressurization',	label = _('Depressurization'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
			
	-- 
	{ id = 'AGK_47B_GYRO_TOTAL_FAILURE', 	label = _('AGK-47B gyro failure'),		enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },

},

Damage = {
	-------------  nose, gear
	[0]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {146}},						-- nose center (arg - ?)
	[1]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {150}},						-- nose left
	[2]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {149}},						-- nose right
	[59] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {148}},						-- nose bottom 
	[8]  = {critical_damage = 2, args = {265}},						-- front gear - FRONT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
	[83] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {134}},						-- wheel nose 
	-------------  cabin
	[3]  = {critical_damage = 1, args = {65}},						-- cockpit
	-------------  fuselage
	[9]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {154}},									-- fuselage left
	[10] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {153}},									-- fuselage right
	[82] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {152}},									-- fuselage bottom
	[19] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {185}},									-- airbrake left
	[20] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {183}},									-- airbrake right
	-------------  left wing, aileron, flap, gear
	[23] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {223}, deps_cells = {25}},				-- wing out left
	[29] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {224}, deps_cells = {23, 25, 37}},		-- wing center left
	[35] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {225}, deps_cells = {23, 29, 25, 37, 15, 84}},	-- wing in left
	[25] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {226}},									-- aileron left
	[37] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {227}},									-- flap in left
	[15] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {267}},									-- gear left - LEFT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
	[84] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {136}},						  			-- wheel left
	-------------  right wing, aileron, flap, gear
	[24] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {213}, deps_cells = {26}},				-- wing out right
	[30] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {214}, deps_cells = {24, 26, 38}},		-- wing center right
	[36] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {215}, deps_cells = {24, 30, 26, 38, 16, 85}},	-- wing in right
	[26] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {216}},									-- aileron right
	[38] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {217}},									-- flap in right
	[16] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {266}},									-- gear right - RIGHT_GEAR_BOX
	[85] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {135}},						  			-- wheel right
	-------------  fin, rudder
	[40] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {241}, deps_cells = {53}},				-- fin top right
	[44] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {242}},									-- fin bottom left
	[53] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {248}},									-- rudder top (left)
	[54] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {247}},									-- rudder bottom (right)
	-------------  tail
	[56] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {158}},									-- tail left
	[57] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {157}},									-- tail right
	[58] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {156}},									-- tail bottom
	[11] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {167}},									-- engine		 (arg - ?)
	-------------  left stabilizer
	[47] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {236}, deps_cells = {51}},				-- stabilizer left
	[51] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {239}},									-- elevator left		(visual - 239)
	-------------  right stabilizer
	[48] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {234}, deps_cells = {52}},				-- stabilizer right
	[52] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {238}},									-- elevator right
},

32350149_ModelViewer2017-02-0910-19-55-55.thumb.jpg.05a1fd45205d711fc3c4846076fe378e.jpg

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This isnt the Damage Code.

 

This is a List of 3D parts to load,

 

So When you blow a Wing Off, it will Load MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_R.edm to drop part of a wing in free fall from the aircraft

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=156897&stc=1&d=1486653621

 

 

This is the Actual Failures/Damage Code for the MiG-15:

Failures = {
-- electric system
{ id = 'es_damage_Generator',label = _('Generator FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'es_damage_Starter',label = _('Starter FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'es_damage_Battery',label = _('Battery FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
-- fuel system
{ id = 'fs_damage_TransferPump',label = _('Fuel Transfer Pump FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'fs_damage_BoosterPump',label = _('Fuel Booster Pump FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
-- hydraulic system
{ id = 'hs_damage_MainPump',label = _('Main Hydraulic Pump FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'hs_damage_MainAccumulator',label = _('Main Hydraulic Accumulator FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'hs_damage_MainAutoUnload',label = _('Main Relief Valve FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'hs_damage_GainPump',label = _('Booster Pump FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'hs_damage_GainAccumulator',label = _('Booster Accumulator FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
{ id = 'hs_damage_GainAutoUnload',label = _('Booster Relief Valve FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
-- oxygen system
{ id = 'os_damage_BalloonLeakage',label = _('Oxygen FAILURE'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
-- power plant

-- air system
{ id = 'as_damage_Depressurization',label = _('Depressurization'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },

-- 
{ id = 'AGK_47B_GYRO_TOTAL_FAILURE', label = _('AGK-47B gyro failure'),enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },

},

Damage = {
-------------  nose, gear
[0]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {146}},-- nose center (arg - ?)
[1]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {150}},-- nose left
[2]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {149}},-- nose right
[59] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {148}},-- nose bottom 
[8]  = {critical_damage = 2, args = {265}},-- front gear - FRONT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
[83] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {134}},-- wheel nose 
-------------  cabin
[3]  = {critical_damage = 1, args = {65}},-- cockpit
-------------  fuselage
[9]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {154}},-- fuselage left
[10] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {153}},-- fuselage right
[82] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {152}},-- fuselage bottom
[19] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {185}},-- airbrake left
[20] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {183}},-- airbrake right
-------------  left wing, aileron, flap, gear
[23] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {223}, deps_cells = {25}},-- wing out left
[29] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {224}, deps_cells = {23, 25, 37}},-- wing center left
[35] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {225}, deps_cells = {23, 29, 25, 37, 15, 84}},-- wing in left
[25] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {226}},-- aileron left
[37] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {227}},-- flap in left
[15] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {267}},-- gear left - LEFT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
[84] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {136}},  -- wheel left
-------------  right wing, aileron, flap, gear
[24] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {213}, deps_cells = {26}},-- wing out right
[30] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {214}, deps_cells = {24, 26, 38}},-- wing center right
[36] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {215}, deps_cells = {24, 30, 26, 38, 16, 85}},-- wing in right
[26] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {216}},-- aileron right
[38] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {217}},-- flap in right
[16] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {266}},-- gear right - RIGHT_GEAR_BOX
[85] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {135}},  -- wheel right
-------------  fin, rudder
[40] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {241}, deps_cells = {53}},-- fin top right
[44] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {242}},-- fin bottom left
[53] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {248}},-- rudder top (left)
[54] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {247}},-- rudder bottom (right)
-------------  tail
[56] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {158}},-- tail left
[57] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {157}},-- tail right
[58] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {156}},-- tail bottom
[11] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {167}},-- engine (arg - ?)
-------------  left stabilizer
[47] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {236}, deps_cells = {51}},-- stabilizer left
[51] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {239}},-- elevator left(visual - 239)
-------------  right stabilizer
[48] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {234}, deps_cells = {52}},-- stabilizer right
[52] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {238}},-- elevator right
},

I dont know why but i love you

And can you please tell us where you found it?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Edited by shab249
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That's the Basic Failures/Damage Code, Pretty sure there is more within the PFM/PSM DLLs

 

That Block of Code is Literally right below the damage parts list posted earlier.

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This isnt the Damage Code.

 

This is a List of 3D parts to load,

 

So When you blow a Wing Off, it will Load MiG_15bis_oblomok__wing_R.edm to drop part of a wing in free fall from the aircraft

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=156897&stc=1&d=1486653621

 

 

This is the Actual Failures/Damage Code for the MiG-15:

   Failures = {
       -- electric system
       { id = 'es_damage_Generator',    label = _('Generator FAILURE'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'es_damage_Starter',        label = _('Starter FAILURE'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'es_damage_Battery',        label = _('Battery FAILURE'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       -- fuel system
       { id = 'fs_damage_TransferPump',    label = _('Fuel Transfer Pump FAILURE'),    enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'fs_damage_BoosterPump',        label = _('Fuel Booster Pump FAILURE'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       -- hydraulic system
       { id = 'hs_damage_MainPump',            label = _('Main Hydraulic Pump FAILURE'),            enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'hs_damage_MainAccumulator',        label = _('Main Hydraulic Accumulator FAILURE'),    enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'hs_damage_MainAutoUnload',        label = _('Main Relief Valve FAILURE'),                enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'hs_damage_GainPump',            label = _('Booster Pump FAILURE'),                    enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'hs_damage_GainAccumulator',        label = _('Booster Accumulator FAILURE'),            enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       { id = 'hs_damage_GainAutoUnload',        label = _('Booster Relief Valve FAILURE'),            enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       -- oxygen system
       { id = 'os_damage_BalloonLeakage',        label = _('Oxygen FAILURE'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
       -- power plant

       -- air system
       { id = 'as_damage_Depressurization',    label = _('Depressurization'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },
               
       -- 
       { id = 'AGK_47B_GYRO_TOTAL_FAILURE',     label = _('AGK-47B gyro failure'),        enable = false, hh = 0, mm = 0, mmint = 1, prob = 100 },

   },

   Damage = {
       -------------  nose, gear
       [0]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {146}},                        -- nose center (arg - ?)
       [1]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {150}},                        -- nose left
       [2]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {149}},                        -- nose right
       [59] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {148}},                        -- nose bottom 
       [8]  = {critical_damage = 2, args = {265}},                        -- front gear - FRONT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
       [83] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {134}},                        -- wheel nose 
       -------------  cabin
       [3]  = {critical_damage = 1, args = {65}},                        -- cockpit
       -------------  fuselage
       [9]  = {critical_damage = 3, args = {154}},                                    -- fuselage left
       [10] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {153}},                                    -- fuselage right
       [82] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {152}},                                    -- fuselage bottom
       [19] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {185}},                                    -- airbrake left
       [20] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {183}},                                    -- airbrake right
       -------------  left wing, aileron, flap, gear
       [23] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {223}, deps_cells = {25}},                -- wing out left
       [29] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {224}, deps_cells = {23, 25, 37}},        -- wing center left
       [35] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {225}, deps_cells = {23, 29, 25, 37, 15, 84}},    -- wing in left
       [25] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {226}},                                    -- aileron left
       [37] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {227}},                                    -- flap in left
       [15] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {267}},                                    -- gear left - LEFT_GEAR_BOX (arg - ?)
       [84] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {136}},                                      -- wheel left
       -------------  right wing, aileron, flap, gear
       [24] = {critical_damage = 6, args = {213}, deps_cells = {26}},                -- wing out right
       [30] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {214}, deps_cells = {24, 26, 38}},        -- wing center right
       [36] = {critical_damage = 7, args = {215}, deps_cells = {24, 30, 26, 38, 16, 85}},    -- wing in right
       [26] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {216}},                                    -- aileron right
       [38] = {critical_damage = 2, args = {217}},                                    -- flap in right
       [16] = {critical_damage = 3,args = {266}},                                    -- gear right - RIGHT_GEAR_BOX
       [85] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {135}},                                      -- wheel right
       -------------  fin, rudder
       [40] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {241}, deps_cells = {53}},                -- fin top right
       [44] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {242}},                                    -- fin bottom left
       [53] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {248}},                                    -- rudder top (left)
       [54] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {247}},                                    -- rudder bottom (right)
       -------------  tail
       [56] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {158}},                                    -- tail left
       [57] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {157}},                                    -- tail right
       [58] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {156}},                                    -- tail bottom
       [11] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {167}},                                    -- engine         (arg - ?)
       -------------  left stabilizer
       [47] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {236}, deps_cells = {51}},                -- stabilizer left
       [51] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {239}},                                    -- elevator left        (visual - 239)
       -------------  right stabilizer
       [48] = {critical_damage = 3, args = {234}, deps_cells = {52}},                -- stabilizer right
       [52] = {critical_damage = 1, args = {238}},                                    -- elevator right
   },

 

 

I do realize that....That is why I specifically said, "Of course, you didn't see me hit anything vital" in my post. I know that this is not the damage but the visuals that are loaded for damage. My point was that even if the damage does occur it is not displayed therefore not showing the damage that was inflicted by the guns. This causes Mig pilots to look at their aircraft and either say you missed or there is little to no damage caused by the 50s. This is becausee the visual damage is not reprisented on the Mig.


Edited by Alphazulu
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I know the damage module is ****ed but you know in real life the us understood after the korean war that .50 is useless in AA fights so its not only the damage module

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

If .50 were useless then how do you account for all the Migs downed by them and all the WW2 birds downed by them? Also, how do you account for pilots that downed multiple Migs in a single flight without re-arming?

 

They increase the size of the rounds and the velocity as the size, strength, and speed of aircraft increase. It makes no sense to say, well since the size and speed of ammo increases with the size, strength, and speed of aircraft, therefore slower smaller ammo against older, slower, smaller and weaker aircraft is ineffective.

 

So I guess that means that two maxim machines guns on a Fokker D7 are useless against a Sopwith Camel....the reason....because two maxim machine guns are useless against a Spitfire????

 

This reminds me of a guy that started arguing that canons have always been better than machine guns. He then went on to say how early canons just fired slowly and had lots of jams etc...however as time passed and the canons rate of fire and reliability increased the canons were perfected. So in short, his argument was canons were always better (if you ignore the problems they had on early canons)


Edited by Alphazulu
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  • 2 weeks later...
I've been playing about with the F-86 recently again, and it seems to me either the F-86's armaments are incredibly weak, or the MiG-15 is more armoured than an M-1 Abrams....

 

I damaged a MiG-15, took one of his elevators off, and he tried to run to an airbase, so he was flying straight and level, so he was an easy target, I just sat behind him and emptied my entire ammo load, and finally he went down, almost all of my rounds were hitting in his engine/tail area, I'd estimate about 90% hit rate, yet it took all my ammo to get a kill?

 

I know it's only 12.7mm ammo, but that should be enough that a short burst should do the job, not the entire lot.

 

So is this bugged, or is the MiG-15 that tough, I find it hard to accept that it is.

I once fired all of my ammo into a MiG, only for him to keep flying. I finally killed him by ramming into him with my vertical stabilizer. I lost half my tail, but returned to base (Sabre living up to its name). MiG damage model is ridiculously broken, and the only reliable way to down MiGs without using all your ammo is to aim for the wing roots.

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A-10C, FC3, P-51, BF-109, UH-1, MI-8, KA-50, M2000C, AJS-37, Gazelle, F-5E, L-39, F-86, MiG-15, MiG-21.

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  • 7 months later...

Interesting discussion here. Can we please make sure to clarify stories against AI and stories against players. AI damage in DCS is known to be a huge problem in general, not just in the Sabre.

 

I'm guessing the damage model is somewhat similar to ground units, you need to do x amount of damage before a part breaks. The .50 rounds are doing small amounts of damage to multiple systems, but not enough to destroy anything. Ideally, each system would have degrees of damage and related effects. This is all a guess.

 

The part about .50 accuracy due to barrel heating is also very interesting. I would love to see concrete details on this. There are tons of enthusiasts here who might be interested in looking into this.

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  • 1 month later...

Absolutely the Sabre it well worth the time and money. It may take some extra time to get all this sorted out after the 2.5 merge is done.. I love this plane.

There are 2 categories of fighter pilots: those who have performed, and those who someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy. Robert Shaw

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One question: is the sabre worth to buy?

 

 

very wrothy buy. Especially now on Christmas sale with 50% off

 

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The AI -15 is a magical beast indeed. It has performance off the charts. 1 or 2 circle fight, it doesn't matter. I can be pulling Max G and rate him from 6 to 12 and he'll have enough energy to pull vertical accelerate away, and reverse at the Apex, while I'm buffeting still in the vertical climb. I've read that there's a way to script the AI to not drop their ext tanks and this makes them behave closer to the real performance?

Cheers,

 

Rick

CSEL\CMEL\IFR

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.50's are the opposite of worthless. Back in Korea the .50's could pump out 900-ish rounds a min. Each round had a muzzle velocity of over 2800 feet per second. Each round weighed 619 grains and impacted with over 10,000lbs of energy. The Browning M2 also shoots pretty dead on for a machine gun out to 1500yds, That's twice as far as you'd ever engage an air target.

 

Now multiply all of that times six.

 

There's a reason why the US standardized it's armament to using the .50 during WWII. Against heavily armored ground targets it wasn't a great weapon, but against anything in the air it was a rip saw, thousands of pounds of bullets hitting a target so hard that in the words of one Jug pilot engaging a Bf-109 "it moved the enemy fighter visible sidways". Jets, by the nature of their fuel and power plant, are even more susceptible to incoming fire. To say that the .50 is worthless is such a closed minded, uneducated statement. One to one vs a cannon like a 20mm or 30mm sure, a single round doesn't do the damage, but you never have equal fire lol, you have 10 rds per gun times 6 guns all focused on one little area since the guns have a set convergence for each cannon round.....

 

I think if nothing else you could look at the kill ratio during Korea too. We wrecked their crap lol, I wanna say a 10 to 1 ratio (fuzzy memory).....most of the kills are owned by Sabres, and of course these were equipped with 6 x M2 .50 cal. Were there other factors contributing? Yep, hydraulically boosted controls and better visibility on the Sabre sure were clear advantages over the MiG-15, but once in a position to engage you had your .50's :-)

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I think the destruction of the MiG-15 is very close to accurate. From the Interview I've seen with Steve Hinton, he said that they didn't explode like fighters did in WWII. Which makes sense, since Kerosene vapors don't ignite as easily as Avgas does. He said that he once unloaded into the tail of a -15 and pieces came flying off but it never exploded. He must of killed the pilot, because he said it simply rolled over and gently dove into the ground.

 

My issue is with it's performance...they are essentially never ending energy machines. They turn on a dime at low speed, and accelerate back to corner velocity. Have never ending vertical energy.

 

Now all that said, when you fly against Human pilots in MP, the jet performs more or less true to life. It doesn't have those magic-like abilities that the AI counterpart does. It's a fair match with humans at the controls.

Cheers,

 

Rick

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I think you are thinking of Lt.Col Bruce Hinton scored the first Sabre kill of the Korean War as the CO of the 336th FIS.

 

Lt.Col Hinton was flying an F-8A which was equipped with the M2 instead of the M3 that the F-8E and F models like ours was equipped with. The M2 with the WWII ammo was notoriously under powered against the MiG. Along with the M3 the new M20 APIT replaced the M8 API round and was more capable of igniting MiGs on fire. At high alt the rounds generally did not have enough o2 to ignite fires and if you watch the gun cam footage at high alt you get billowing white vapor from fuselage strikes but no fire, at low alt there is considerable fire which will lead to an explosion.

 

One of the main problems with our MiG is the wing blowing off in an explosion like it was a Fw-190. Watch gun cam footage of MiGs and I bet you can't find one example of it. Take a look at a cutaway drawing of the MiG-15 and there is nothing in the wing root to explode. In the rear fuselage however, there is a delicate engine with a very hot flame inside surrounded by saddle shaped fuel tanks.

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Ahh....you know it could have been...I'm drawing on memory of an interview I watched in like 2006....so I'll have to go and try to dig up the interview again! Yes, Bruce...sorry I'm bungling that up with Steve who flies for FHC P-51's...My brain thought Hinton and I spat out the first name that came to mind! LOL.

Cheers,

 

Rick

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K

.50's are the opposite of worthless. Back in Korea the .50's could pump out 900-ish rounds a min. Each round had a muzzle velocity of over 2800 feet per second. Each round weighed 619 grains and impacted with over 10,000lbs of energy. The Browning M2 also shoots pretty dead on for a machine gun out to 1500yds, That's twice as far as you'd ever engage an air target.

 

Now multiply all of that times six.

 

There's a reason why the US standardized it's armament to using the .50 during WWII. Against heavily armored ground targets it wasn't a great weapon, but against anything in the air it was a rip saw, thousands of pounds of bullets hitting a target so hard that in the words of one Jug pilot engaging a Bf-109 "it moved the enemy fighter visible sidways". Jets, by the nature of their fuel and power plant, are even more susceptible to incoming fire. To say that the .50 is worthless is such a closed minded, uneducated statement. One to one vs a cannon like a 20mm or 30mm sure, a single round doesn't do the damage, but you never have equal fire lol, you have 10 rds per gun times 6 guns all focused on one little area since the guns have a set convergence for each cannon round.....

 

I think if nothing else you could look at the kill ratio during Korea too. We wrecked their crap lol, I wanna say a 10 to 1 ratio (fuzzy memory).....most of the kills are owned by Sabres, and of course these were equipped with 6 x M2 .50 cal. Were there other factors contributing? Yep, hydraulically boosted controls and better visibility on the Sabre sure were clear advantages over the MiG-15, but once in a position to engage you had your .50's :-)

 

 

50s are still nice due to fast rof and good accuracy combined with a high ammo count. I certainly prefer them to the migs guns. however irl for fast jet combat it was found that 50s were somewhat mediocre with them not being able to destroy migs fast enough.

 

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p86_25.html

 

It's exactly why the gunval program was pushed to evaluate a potential replacement for 50s a 20mm revolving cannons t160s. Overall tests were successfully and many of the teething issues fixed by the time production m39s came about these cannons replaced the 50 calibers as standard armament ( being installed on the post korean f86h as well as the f100 super sabre series) until the m61 Vulcan came about and became the gun of choice for generations of aircraft to come


Edited by Kev2go

 

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Windows 10 64 bit Pro

Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD,  WD 1TB HDD

 

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  • 4 months later...

Not sure if everyone would catch it...T160 Revolving cannon is a revolver cannon. Yes, similar to a revolver pistol. A 5-chamber cylinder rotates and brings live cartridges into alignment with the single barrel for firing. Simultaneously, loading a preceding empty chamber with another live round and extracting a spent case from a succeeding chamber and ejecting it. The rounds were fired electrically and the rate of fire was 1500 rounds-per-minute. The T160 was developed into the M39 in about 1954. The F-86H was equipped with four of these cannons, so too was the F-100 Super Sabre and F-101A & C Voodoo. So, if it worked out this way in practice, the four M39's in an F-86H or F-100 would put out the same RoF as an M61 Vulcan, but probably weighed more than the M61. The F-5E we have in DCS carries two of these cannon in the M39A2 version, developed in 1964. [source: WikiVisually.com, Wikipedia.com, and others]

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  • 3 months later...

Don't forget Robbie Reisner, Ralph Parr and "Boots Blesse. The Sabre was a great gun platform and the radar gunsight was a real advantage. At one point, the kill ratio was about 10 to 1 in favor of the Sabres, Honchos and all. Also, I don't remember hearing anything at all about barrel warp in the Sabres 50s. That's a little whacky if you ask me. the Sabre had a tight bullet grouping, just like the P-38 and this gave the aircraft a good punch as well as longer range without even including the cannon. I also remember some comment like "Put it in a 6g turn and keep it there. I'm on my way." This was a guaranteed defeat of the slow canon muzzle velocity. I could have sworn that was Robin Olds but it may have come from his time in F-4s v MiG-21s since I just figured out he did not serve in Korea. Don't know how I got that confused? I wonder if he did but had to "deny" it because it was secret? ;) Just kidding.

 

 

This forum sight is a .ru site. IL-2, Lock On and the DCS contributors including Eagle Dynamics, 777 (Rise of flight) and the Fighter collection have all been working together in some form for more than 10 years. They have produced wonderful sims and I don't hold it against them if there was a touch of "fanboy" attitude towards the Russian aircraft. And what about the geography? It could also be just an oversight. Still, here's to hoping it gets fixed.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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a touch of "fanboy" attitude towards the Russian aircraft

 

Ah, the good old bias accusation. E.g:

 

 

 

* Blue AC are overmodelled

 

* Red AC are overmodelled

 

* Everything is overmodelled but the crate I'm flying today

 

* My crate is undermodelled

 

* Your crate is overmodelled

 

* Your crate is undermodelled but mine is even worse

 

* The devs are politically affiliated with X/Y/Z and thus ideologically incapable of producing accurate AC

 

* It's all a conspiracy anyway

 

 

 

From which we can only conclude that the most accurate sim must be the one drawing most complaints from the whole clientele, because the devs must've done something right if everyone's angry :D


Edited by msalama

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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@squiffy

Barrel warp from heat is an issue with literally every gun ever made. It's an unavoidable by product of heat caused by friction. Thus the popularity of rotating gatling guns. As for kill ratio, that's pretty disputed, as far as I've seen. And no, I don't mean by Russian fanbois, but by academics studying combat records @@

 

Please don't start with the 'bias' nonsense. I see that in literally every game, and often directed at multiple parties. It's the biggest copout in gaming when somebody sucks, to claim the odds are deliberately stacked against them. It's widely favored as an excuse even ehen reporting obvious glitches see *planes on grass*, *F-15 demystified*, and *su-27 fm* on these forums for more.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2

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