.303 belting rounds

Dear Spitfire Devs,

The reference below states that:

"By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary bullets."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_ammunition

Any information you could provide to clarify the .303 belting mix for the final release version of the Spit IX would be gratefully received.

Thank you in anticipation.

Happy landings,

56RAF_Talisman

Cross reference: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=178037&page=3

Further to above, please find link to source book:

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/volume1/index.html

Happy landings,

56RAF_Talisman

Further to above, please find link to source book:

 

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/volume1/index.html

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Regarding the .303 Spitfire ammunition: Using Anthony Williams for reference he also states that the .303 AP was not effective as the round after penetrating the skin could not damage internal structures. Therefore the use of AP was refused by fighter command. (It needed .50 cal and up where you will see the AP/incendiary on the P51)

The Spit .303 correct loadouts were a mix of ball and DeWilde. The DeWilde was particularly effective and note: it was a contact incendiary - not a burning incendiary when leaving the barrel. Thus the many sparkling flashes on contact.

Hispanos another story and very effective indeed.

And . . . yes, pilots could change their convergence settings which is definitely supported by Johnnie Johnson.

I don't think the devs should need us to convince them otherwise. They should have this information already if they were doing due diligence to the time and model of the Spitfire and other WWII aircraft.

Cheers,

Cats

(Team member retired, weapons/damage model Team Fusion)

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=177592

some stuf on there to

Dear Spitfire dev's,

Any news regarding my original post concerning .303 rounds for the final release version of the Spitfire would be greatly appreciated.

It seems that we may still have historically incorrect type of mix of .303 rounds for the Spitfire, including observer rounds :(

Thank you in anticipation.

Happy landings,

 

...

 

The Spit .303 correct loadouts were a mix of ball and DeWilde. The DeWilde was particularly effective and note: it was a contact incendiary - not a burning incendiary when leaving the barrel. Thus the many sparkling flashes on contact.

 

...

 

Cheers,

Cats

(Team member retired, weapons/damage model Team Fusion)

This is what we always said in CLOD when talking about the MK11a in 1940 but was it also true of the MkIX in 1944? Also, wasn't there some argument about the RAF agreeing ball & Dw was the best mix but not having enough Dw to actually implement it for all units? Perhaps that was not true in 1944.

This is an answer I got to a different question but still informative...

-- Browning .303 Mk. II

-- [1] = Cartridge, S.A., Ball, .303 inch, Magazine Rifle, Cordite, Mark I

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_Ball_Mk1c", user_name = _("British303_Ball_Mk1c"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0139317657, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 600.456,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (2) = Cartridge, S.A., Ball, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark VI

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_Ball_Mk6", user_name = _("British303_Ball_Mk6"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0139317657, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 600.456,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (3) = Cartridge, S.A., Ball, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark VII

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_Ball_Mk7", user_name = _("British303_Ball_Mk7"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (4) = Cartridge, S.A., Ball, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark VIII, Forbidden

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_Ball_Mk8", user_name = _("British303_Ball_Mk8"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0113398093, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 777.240,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (5) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, 500 yd, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark I

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk1", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk1"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 0.77,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (6) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, infantery long range, 1000 yd, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark II

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk2", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk2"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 1.91,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (7) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, naval, 800 yd, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark III

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk3", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk3"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_red",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 1.40,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (8) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, aircraft, 550 yd, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark IIII

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk4", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk4"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 0.86,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (9) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, aircraft night dimmed, 550 yd, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark V

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk5", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk5"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_red",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 0.86,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0.333333333,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (10) = Cartridge, S.A., Tracer, G, aircraft, 550 yd, .303 inch, Nitrocellulose, Mark VIz

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_G_Mk6z", user_name = _("British303_G_Mk6z"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.0,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 0.86,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (11) = Cartridge, S.A., Armour Piercing, W, .303 inch, Nitrocellulose, Mark Iz

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_W_Mk1z", user_name = _("British303_W_Mk1z"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "AP",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (12) = Cartridge, S.A., Incendiary, B, .303 inch, Nitrocellulose, Mark IIIIz

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_B_Mk4z", user_name = _("British303_B_Mk4z"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_white",

projectile = "Ball",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.00025,

payload = 0.00025, -- of Ammonium Nitrate / Thermal

payloadEffect = "Thermal",

payloadMaterial = "AmmoniumNitrate",

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = 3.6,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (13) = Cartridge, S.A., Incendiary, B, .303 inch, Nitrocellulose, Mark VIz, "De Wilde"

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_B_Mk6z", user_name = _("British303_B_Mk6z"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "HE",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0005,

payload = 0.0005, -- of Ammonium Nitrate / High Explosive

payloadEffect = "Thermal",

payloadMaterial = "AmmoniumNitrate",

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (14) = Cartridge, S.A., Observer, O, .303 inch, Cordite, Mark I

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "British303_O_Mk1", user_name = _("British303_O_Mk1"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

projectile = "HE",

mass = 0.0112750103, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.024 + 0.009, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.006 + 0.009, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0020,

payload = 0.0020, -- of Black Powder / High Explosive

payloadEffect = "Nil",

payloadMaterial = "BlackPowder",

v0 = 743.712,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.00045,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 3.6,

caliber = 7.62,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.0, 0.912, 0.7, 0.25, 1.80},

k1 = 4.8e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- end of Browning .303 Mk. II

-- Hispano Mk. II

-- (1) = Cartridge, Hispano_Mk_II_20x80AP

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "Hispano_Mk_II_20x80AP", user_name = _("Hispano_Mk_II_20x80AP"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_yellow",

mass = 0.115, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.283, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.056, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0000,

v0 = 880.0,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.0006,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 6.0,

caliber = 20,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.3, 0.93, 0.55, 0.36, 1.8},

k1 = 3.6e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (2) = Cartridge, Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HET

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HET", user_name = _("Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HET"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_red",

mass = 0.092, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.283, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.056, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0190, -- of Amatol / Concussion

v0 = 840.0,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.0006,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 6.0,

caliber = 20,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.3, 0.93, 0.55, 0.36, 1.8},

k1 = 3.6e-08,

tracer_off = 1.7,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 1.7,

scale_tracer = 1,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- (3) = Cartridge, Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HE

declare_weapon({category = CAT_SHELLS, name = "Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HE", user_name = _("Hispano_Mk_II_20x80HE"),

model_name = "tracer_bullet_red",

mass = 0.092, -- Bullet mass

round_mass = 0.283, -- Assembled shell + link

cartridge_mass = 0.056, -- Empty shell (+ link if links are stored as well)

explosive = 0.0190, -- of Amatol / Concussion

v0 = 860.0,

Dv0 = 0.0080,

Da0 = 0.0006,

Da1 = 0.0,

life_time = 6.0,

caliber = 20,

s = 0.0,

j = 0.0,

l = 0.0,

charTime = 0,

cx = {1.3, 0.93, 0.55, 0.36, 1.8},

k1 = 3.6e-08,

tracer_off = -1,

tracer_on = tracer_on_time,

smoke_tail_life_time = 0,

scale_tracer = 0,

cartridge = 0,

scale_smoke = barrel_smoke_level,

smoke_opacity = barrel_smoke_opacity,

})

-- end of Hispano Mk. II

Dear Spitfire developers,

Do you have any news that you could share with us regarding this thread and/or any WIP concerning the Spitfire guns load-out?

This book is a good source of information:

"British Aircraft Armament Vol.2: Guns and Gunsights", by R Wallace Clarke.

Below is a quote from the book:

"Most air forces opted for shell-firing guns in the 1930s because it was thought that explosive shells would destroy an aircraft with very few hits. This was not borne out by events; in fact trials often showed that solid ball ammuntion did as much damage as explosive rounds, which tended to explode directly on contact with armour or airframes without penetrating them. The heavy ball projectiles penetrated both, and was the main type of ammunition used in the early war years. However, it was then realised that an ideal round would first penetrate an airframe and then ignite the fuel or oil inside it. Incendiary ammuntion tended to break up, but a composite explosive/incendiary shell was found to be very effective. Known as HE/I, this new round was however less effective against armour. In July 1942 the semi-armour piercing incendiary (SAP/I) was introduced, with a tungsten nose and a shell containing an incendiary composition. On impact, the tip penetrated the armour, and there was then a flash of flame which ignited anything inflammable within 305 mm (12 in) of it. From mid-1942 these two types of ammuntion replaced other types, belts being made up equally of HE/I and SAP/I."

This book could be a good source of information for Allied aircraft WWII.

Good luck and happy landings,

56RAF_Talisman

Given that the Spit was released on steam now.. I suppose they've decided it's out of alpha/ beat and done with?

No clipped wing? No bombs? Incorrect ammo load?

I hope the steam release doesn't signal that ED think the spit is done.

Given that the Spit was released on steam now.. I suppose they've decided it's out of alpha/ beat and done with?

 

No clipped wing? No bombs? Incorrect ammo load?

 

I hope the steam release doesn't signal that ED think the spit is done.

far from it.