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Who of you guys finished the F-E Aggressor BFM campaign!


Frag

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Hi guys,

 

who of you finished the F-5E Aggressor BFM campaign?

 

Wow this is a tough one. I WAS considering myself quite proficient with the F5, but the second mission is already quite a challenge!

 

You need to win 3 gun only dogfight ... 5 minutes MAX each. Could not do better than one kill out of 3 so far.

 

Are all the missions that tough!?

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I found it pretty tough myself. I ended up reading a ton into BFM and fighter tactics. (bought 3 books and watched a million hours of youtube vids on the topic lol)

 

It takes time to learn how to to own it in the F-5. Spend the time on it you'll find yourself being able to jump into any airframe afterwards and have a huge advantage.

 

Also worth noting that the AI is apparently still using simplified flight model and is able to out fly you, so as soon as you make a mistake you're pretty much toast.

 

I suggest setting up your own custom 1v1 engagements to practice. Helped me a lot. Good luck!

 

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I found it pretty tough myself. I ended up reading a ton into BFM and fighter tactics. (bought 3 books and watched a million hours of youtube vids on the topic lol)

 

It takes time to learn how to to own it in the F-5. Spend the time on it you'll find yourself being able to jump into any airframe afterwards and have a huge advantage.

 

Also worth noting that the AI is apparently still using simplified flight model and is able to out fly you, so as soon as you make a mistake you're pretty much toast.

 

I suggest setting up your own custom 1v1 engagements to practice. Helped me a lot. Good luck!

 

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Actually both the BFM and ACM campaigns include such missions. You just have to search for them.

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Actually both the BFM and ACM campaigns include such missions. You just have to search for them.
They sure do, you have to copy them from the campaign folder to mission folder after each update. I just found making my own cut out all the mission banter before the merge and allowed for faster replay time.

 

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Any of our veterans here would be heroic enough to: Eat two pancakes, cold start that old bird, fly to the range, kick the a$$ of those 3 bandits and post back the track here?

 

Many of the dog-fighting newcomers would learn a LOT from it.

 

Those 3 dogfights are not really the problem for me. The 5 minutes time limit is. For each fight, I always end up in the offensive position ... but I cannot get the kill within the time limit. I will sometime get lucky and have one in the available time. But all 3 ... I am not at that level yet.

 

I think you need to be in the Maverick family to handle all those 3 bandits within 5 minutes each. If someone could do it and post the track here, I would for sure learn something from it.

 

Be a good instructor, and post a track here if you are that guy who can do it while sipping coffee. Everyone will appreciate it.

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Any of our veterans here would be heroic enough to: Eat two pancakes, cold start that old bird, fly to the range, kick the a$$ of those 3 bandits and post back the track here?

 

Many of the dog-fighting newcomers would learn a LOT from it.

 

Those 3 dogfights are not really the problem for me. The 5 minutes time limit is. For each fight, I always end up in the offensive position ... but I cannot get the kill within the time limit. I will sometime get lucky and have one in the available time. But all 3 ... I am not at that level yet.

 

I think you need to be in the Maverick family to handle all those 3 bandits within 5 minutes each. If someone could do it and post the track here, I would for sure learn something from it.

 

Be a good instructor, and post a track here if you are that guy who can do it while sipping coffee. Everyone will appreciate it.

It should be mentioned that pre merge snap shots are frowned upon. Lol. Although when you make it to the Mig 29 you may start playing dirty.

 

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It should be mentioned that pre merge snap shots are frowned upon. Lol. Although when you make it to the Mig 29 you may start playing dirty.

 

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LOLL indeed shooting it down before the merge would feel more like very dangerous lucky shot and would not count for the Maverick family.

 

But if someone post 3 clean gun kills here, I will watch it with a cola, popcorn and a notepad. It will deserve all my attention!

 

I noticed while trying this morning (AGAIN) that I lose too much altitude in my turn fights. I should play more with the rudders to turn more horizontally. Can't wait to see if it will help in my engagements.

 

In the meantime, still praying that someone will show up here with that track :book:

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Gave it a whirl earlier, 1st victory via broken hard deck, 2nd loss end of VUL, 3rd victory via guns kill. I don't think I've ever been able to pull off 3 in a row. You'll find the next fights F-4, F-14 are much easier and you only have to fight 2 bandits instead of 3 for the introduction.

 

I wish it was as easier to put knots back on the jet after getting below corner speed, those J85s just don't boot you back up quick enough. I also forgot to use the old fixed flaps trick to keep faster longer.

 

I've accepted your challenge lol.

 

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Gave it a whirl earlier, 1st victory via broken hard deck, 2nd loss end of VUL, 3rd victory via guns kill. I don't think I've ever been able to pull off 3 in a row. You'll find the next fights F-4, F-14 are much easier and you only have to fight 2 bandits instead of 3 for the introduction.

 

I wish it was as easier to put knots back on the jet after getting below corner speed, those J85s just don't boot you back up quick enough. I also forgot to use the old fixed flaps trick to keep faster longer.

 

I've accepted your challenge lol.

 

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Ha I will be back here everyday man! LOL

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Ha I will be back here everyday man! LOL
Don't hold your breath, wife + kids + job = random spaced out play time. Lol

 

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Best I could do bud. A.I. F-5E flight model on excellent skill is daaaamn hard to saddle up on.

Not sure if its track worthy or not but I did get a guns kill on the 2nd one (still ended up as a hard deck win) although it didn't count as one.

So actually 3 hard deck wins.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16APjvOKBi4ignVcxTn50rvIhf17vwK1I/view?usp=sharing

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I never got past the second mission. Even if I beat all three fighters (forcing a hard deck breach is the easiest way), there's not enough fuel to return home.

 

This means in order to actually pass the mission and return home, you have to try and conserve fuel the whole time, especially while dogfighting, because that's where you will burn the most. This is quite a challenge.

 

I highly doubt that this is a realistic training scenario, as they would never risk an aircraft and its pilot's life like this in real life.

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Best I could do bud. A.I. F-5E flight model on excellent skill is daaaamn hard to saddle up on.

Not sure if its track worthy or not but I did get a guns kill on the 2nd one (still ended up as a hard deck win) although it didn't count as one.

So actually 3 hard deck wins.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16APjvOKBi4ignVcxTn50rvIhf17vwK1I/view?usp=sharing

 

Hi Darc ... watched your track. Yeah it is mostly the scenario I always end up with. I usually kill clean one out of 3 ... then lose.

 

However, watching your track, I noticed that you are managing your speed WAY better than I do. You are mostly always keeping your speed over 300 ... where I commonly drop near the stall speed.

 

I could not see from the track, but are you manually managing the flaps or you let the "AUTO" setting do the job?

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I found it pretty tough myself. I ended up reading a ton into BFM and fighter tactics. (bought 3 books and watched a million hours of youtube vids on the topic lol)

 

Which books? Do you have any recommendations? For now I was just reading historic books, but I did not come around for tactical books.

 

I never got past the second mission. Even if I beat all three fighters (forcing a hard deck breach is the easiest way), there's not enough fuel to return home.

 

This means in order to actually pass the mission and return home, you have to try and conserve fuel the whole time, especially while dogfighting, because that's where you will burn the most. This is quite a challenge.

 

I highly doubt that this is a realistic training scenario, as they would never risk an aircraft and its pilot's life like this in real life.

 

The second mission against the F-5 (1st real mission of the campaign) felt ok for me at first.

I got the the first one, had problems with the second but then had to abort the third one, because of my fuel level.

 

What I now do is kind of cheating, I guess. Well, to my slight disadvantage.

I take 3 small 150 gallon tanks instead of one large. At "Belted point" I drop the first two wing tanks.

Then I run in for the engagement and try and keep the first one until the merge.

 

I kind of managed to get past the second mission, with one win and 2 loses.

Anyway, I get toasted by the F-4E all the way. I will edit the mission to "good" skill for the A.I. and try a few missions before I continue I guess.

 

The A.I. gets speed back so much easier and faster. I feel "excellent" should be renamed in "over-powered" or what were those weird difficulty levels in other games again?...

 

What do you guys think is the "most realistic" A.I. level? At "good" they seem to be stupid, but humans make errors as well.


Edited by Bananabrai

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Hi Darc ... watched your track. Yeah it is mostly the scenario I always end up with. I usually kill clean one out of 3 ... then lose.

 

 

 

However, watching your track, I noticed that you are managing your speed WAY better than I do. You are mostly always keeping your speed over 300 ... where I commonly drop near the stall speed.

 

 

 

I could not see from the track, but are you manually managing the flaps or you let the "AUTO" setting do the job?

I like to set flaps UP unless I get really slow during the fight. I find it allows you to get speed back slightly faster as AUTO will drag you a bit if you get slow. When I end up in a scissors I'll click them back to AUTO as being slow in scissors is the goal.

 

Speed management is all about fighting the urge to pull too much too early. This can be hard to resist when you constantly see your opponents get their nose around faster than you.

Since its hard to feel when you're turning too hard when you arent staring at the gauges I've found audio cues help, mainly the whooshing sound which indicates skidding. Also the G breath with a high pitch air stream would indicate a fast turn above 4 Gs.

 

Hey man if you can manage hard deck wins at least you will be able to advance the campaign. The goal is to prevent them from winning so they can get chewed out in debrief. ;)

 

 

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Which books? Do you have any recommendations? For now I was just reading historic books, but I did not come around for tactical books.

 

The second mission against the F-5 (1st real mission of the campaign) felt ok for me at first.

I got the the first one, had problems with the second but then had to abort the third one, because of my fuel level.

 

What I now do is kind of cheating, I guess. Well, to my slight disadvantage.

I take 3 small 150 gallon tanks instead of one large. At "Belted point" I drop the first two wing tanks.

Then I run in for the engagement and try and keep the first one until the merge.

 

I kind of managed to get past the second mission, with one win and 2 loses.

Anyway, I get toasted by the F-4E all the way. I will edit the mission to "good" skill for the A.I. and try a few missions before I continue I guess.

 

The A.I. gets speed back so much easier and faster. I feel "excellent" should be renamed in "over-powered" or what were those weird difficulty levels in other games again?...

 

What do you guys think is the "most realistic" A.I. level? At "good" they seem to be stupid, but humans make errors as well.

 

The two main reads I reference are:

Art of the Kill : by: Pete Bonanni (more of a pocket guide, watch the video of same name in tandem)

Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering - by Robert L Shaw (much more in depth technical read)

 

RE: FUEL

If you manage your fuel and keep it around 2000lbs per hour you should be able to make it to the merge with the center line tank only. Make sure to use mil power to get up to angles 20 and cruise.

 

Once in combat don't abuse the afterburner. Cut it when you don't need it. Do this and you should make it back to Nellis with a few lbs left. ;) Also I think you can hit up the divert airbase to gas up if you're gung ho on ramp to ramp completion. (I'm all about it).

 

I wish the designer would have set bandit difficulty to random. I agree having them all on excellent is hard as hell.

My advice for these turning fights is go to set up some 1v1 engagements vs "Hard" (or whatever is below excellent I can't remember ATM) and get used to winning those. I find its a good balance between stupid and OP although it totally depends on what jet you're facing.

Also, go do some free flights and get used to finding corner velocity/speed and turn the corners while maintaining G, speed and turn rate. Practice this so it becomes second nature in combat. It really helps not being in a high stress "oh my god if I don't turn now I"ll die" situation to learn this.

 

Search youtube for "flanker training corner speed" and you'll find a great explanation as well.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Cheers

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So for the sake of curiosity I had a look at Darkward's track and compared one turn of the AI (the very last one in the first fight before the AI hits the hard deck) in Tacview to an F-5E manual I have lying around. This is what the turn looks like:

 

 

ZeBqwbm.png

 

 

While there is a component of the turn in the vertical plane, I'm going to disregard it because I'm lazy. The AI enters the turn at ~8600ish feet, at a speed of Mach 0.7, 400 CAS, pulls 5-6gs throughout, and has a turn radius of ~0.5/0.4 miles or ~2400-3000 feet. With these parameters, the turn rate is around 15 degrees per second. At the end of the turn (which I define as the point when the aircraft is back at 8600ft) the aircraft is travelling at Mach 0.65, meaning it has lost relatively little speed.

 

 

This is what the performance charts for the F-5 manual, at an altitude of 5000 feet and a relatively light weight of 14500lbs show:

 

 

Qi4ANex.png

2XnS9yS.jpg

 

 

Note that because the altitude the charts are for is slightly lower, you'd expect the jets in the track to perform worse than these charts.

 

 

The first plot shows that for the turn radius to be 3000ft and lower at a speed near Mach 0.7, the aircraft needs to pull 6.5gs. This turn radius with the given g load therefore seems plausible, but barely.

The second plot shows that for our given mach number, turn radius and turn rate, the aircraft should once again pull over 6gs and be well above its sustained rate curve. Instead in the track, the F-5 is between 5 and 6 gs and barely loses any speed.

 

 

In other words, it seems like to some extent the AI does cheat and pull energy out of nowhere.

 

 

Let's get back to the track. At roughly the same time, Darkward enters the turn at Mach ~0.5, pulls 2-4gs (let's call it 3.5 ish), and exits it at Mach 0.4. Note that these parameters are slightly harder to judge because he eases on the stick towards the end. Regardless, the turn radius is roughly the same as the AI, maybe a bit less. This is consistent with the performance charts. The turn rate chart shows that for this airspeed and g-load, the turn rate of the jet 12-13 degrees per second, and it's slightly above the sustained turn rate curve - Darkward should be bleeding energy in this turn, and indeed that is what happens.

 

 

While this is not particularly scientific because the sample size is small and I neglected the vertical component of the turns, I think it's fair to say that this is decent evidence that the AI's flight model does not match reality in the way that a human's does.


Edited by TLTeo
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So for the sake of curiosity I had a look at Darkward's track and compared one turn of the AI.

 

Thanks for that! I must say I'm not super pumped about the quality of my flying, just dug the idea of taking OPs challenge. Regardless I'm stoked you were able to extract some quality data for player vs. AI flight model comparison.

 

Do you know of a decent database for Vn diagrams for red and blue fighters? Would love to be able to reference them without having to hunt down a load of manuals. Cheers!

 

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Nop, I also end up hunting manuals :(
I've found a bunch of Em diagrams online. If I get time I'll compile them into a PDF for all to enjoy.

 

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Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering - by Robert L Shaw (much more in depth technical read)

Cheers

 

 

My copy of Shaw is autographed.

 

 

Last time I checked it's still the bible of air combat; don't think anything has superseded it yet, but it's very dry and technical.

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My copy of Shaw is autographed.

 

 

Last time I checked it's still the bible of air combat; don't think anything has superseded it yet, but it's very dry and technical.

Agreed its so damn good. Definately worth the money for the hard cover. Did you buy it signed or did you go to a book signing? Either way super cool.

 

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