The beginnings of an F-4 pit

I have been working on this for years. I initially just wanted to find an F-4 B-8 stick grip and mount it on a stock HOTAS, but then I got the chance to buy the entire F-4 stick assembly. So I spent years just using that interfaced into various USB sticks. But I finally got serious and committed to interfacing the stick with a a BU0836X and building a wooden mockup of the Martin-Baker Mk H7 ejection seat along with the left (throttle) console. Over the short term, I am using a Thrustmaster Warthog throttle, but eventually I will make replica F-4 throttle handles and interface them with the BU0836X (it has proven to be too difficult/expensive to get real ones). I would also like to build my own rudder pedals.

For the time being, I need to finish building the main support frame for the seat that includes the headrest and ejection d-ring handles. Once the seat is finished, I will go back fill, sand, and paint everything.

Oh hells yeah! That's what I call a stick assembly. Is that an aileron shaft running under the seat? It's a real B8 grip right?

Nicely done sir!

This a real F-4 stick including the B-8 grip. This is how it looked before I started my building spree:

One word. Only ONE word can be used to describe this.

And that word is.... Epic :D

That really is quality like Shadow said EPIC.

Thats Phantastic! Your B-8 looks brand new. I look forward to watching your progress as there are very few Phantom simulators in operation. I need to build a box like yours for my extra stick to place on display with my seat from an F-4D. You can see some of the seat beside the sim below. I dont have the part that runs under the seat but I wouldnt care since it would be fore static display. Would you be interested in building and painting a box cover for me? I can trade a set of real F-4 rudder pedals.

Visit us at Cockpit-Fest and Ill give you a VIP flight with working g-suit in my 1967 Link F-4J trainer.

Videos are here,

Love your link trainer! The videos are impressive. It must be nice having the resources to own and operate such a thing.

I don't think my box design or build quality merits real rudder pedals (but I would really love to have the pedals!). I am working with simple hand tools (jig saw, circular saw, etc.) on my garage floor with limited time--so my cuts are rushed and eyeballed making them somewhat sloppy. In the end, sanding and filling will fix most if not all of that, but my work is far from display quality. I am more than willing to share my sketchup 3d design file for free if you are interested, with the added benefit that you could refine the dimensions to exactly match the real ones using measurements from your link trainer. I didn't take nearly enough measurements on a trip to Pensacola NAS and had to estimate them using photos. I still need to fabricate a cloth boot as well, which will use velcro rather than snaps. The box would look much better if I had a way to cleanly cut thin sheet metal to lay on top of the wood. But for my purposes, the all-wood box finished smooth and painted gray will be close enough.

My stick is obviously a USAF variant given the tube extension for the back seat controls. It turned out to be useful for retrofitting pots and centering springs out of sight.

I hope someone makes a decent F-4 Phantom for DCS. If they do so, I will put a lot more time/money into my pit until it looks and works as well as I can afford time and money.

Love your link trainer! The videos are impressive. It must be nice having the resources to own and operate such a thing.

 

I don't think my box design or build quality merits real rudder pedals (but I would really love to have the pedals!). I am working with simple hand tools (jig saw, circular saw, etc.) on my garage floor with limited time--so my cuts are rushed and eyeballed making them somewhat sloppy. In the end, sanding and filling will fix most if not all of that, but my work is far from display quality. I am more than willing to share my sketchup 3d design file for free if you are interested, with the added benefit that you could refine the dimensions to exactly match the real ones using measurements from your link trainer. I didn't take nearly enough measurements on a trip to Pensacola NAS and had to estimate them using photos. I still need to fabricate a cloth boot as well, which will use velcro rather than snaps. The box would look much better if I had a way to cleanly cut thin sheet metal to lay on top of the wood. But for my purposes, the all-wood box finished smooth and painted gray will be close enough.

 

My stick is obviously a USAF variant given the tube extension for the back seat controls. It turned out to be useful for retrofitting pots and centering springs out of sight.

 

I hope someone makes a decent F-4 Phantom for DCS. If they do so, I will put a lot more time/money into my pit until it looks and works as well as I can afford time and money.

I think the front stick for all models is the same with the rear seat extension taking place further back than what you have. Late model F-4 got different grips. The E/F/G had the larger box around the stick base.

When I tried scratch building an F-4E pit I also stopped by Pensacola NAS for measurements. pics of that old project are here. http://www.reocities.com/cap17.geo/mycockpit.html

I never thought Id have a real navy sim and work for a boss who would have a real 2 seat F-4D sim. In the past we have networked them which was fun. Once I I took the sim to St. Louis and networked it with a buddy's Navy F-4 sim for a Civil Air Patrol air combat school. Pic and video of that event are on my website. http://blueangel.site90.net/index.php?p=1_17

I just started using Pilot Edge which is a pay for use, professional Air Traffic Control Network. you can talk to other pilots, to Air traffic Control, (Real People, not AI people) and file flight plans. Real world airspace rules are enforced. It supports FS9, FSX, X-plane 9 and 10.

We are flying out of Nellis to the Red Flag gun range. The system also uses bot aircraft to expand the traffic and we are setting up a Red Flag scenerio.

it would be great to have you join us online for some formation flights. If youre not up to talking to ATC you can simply fly as a flight and let the leader do the ATC communication. The more Phantoms the better :)

I didn't realize that you were one and the same as the person with the geocities website! I frequented that site many times over the years and even used your sketch dimensions posted on that site as a cross check with my own measurements to build the throttle console.

My extension tube had been hacked through to get the stick out of the cockpit. The edge was very uneven. So upon receipt from eBay, I used a hack saw to give it an even edge and a file to smooth it out for safety. The F-4N I sat in at Pensacola didn't have an extension tube. The box just went straight to the deck. The photos I have of F-4B/N and F-4J/S in "Danny Coremans Uncovering the US Navy F-4 Phantom" seem to show the same thing. I may be going to Dayton Ohio for a weekend in September. I hope to get some more F-4 cockpit time while I am there... but I learned on the Pensacola trip that the simulators in museums may not have everything right. They are more interested in making it look presentable and surviving throngs of wild kids than keeping it 100% historically accurate.

I have FSX, but rarely use it. I have X-Plane 8? but don't even have it installed. I would need an F-4 addon for FSX (can't stand the default F-4 in X-Plane). I have been patiently waiting for A2A simulations to release their take on the F-4, but it is low on their priority list and they want to release an F-104 first to build up experience, so it may be years before they release an F-4 if ever. So what is the best F-4 addon for FSX? I don't have any ATC experience at all. But I do enjoy online flying and would be interested in joining a formation of F-4s in any sim that supports it.

My primary sim since its release has been the Strike Fighters series, thanks to its focus on the F-4. I used to keep a multiplayer server up on Hyperlobby and Hamachi 24/7 for SFP1 and later the WoX series. I did some formation flying, but primarily did close-in dogfighting. Unforunately, SF2 got rid of multiplayer. I had already given up online flying before SF2. I had gotten married and had a son. My schedule got pretty tight and has largely remained that way. But my son is now 6 years old and doesn't take up as much time and energy as he once did. So, I may be able to participate online on a regular basis for the first time in years.

I started flying F-4s on PCs with a work laptop in 1998 with a copy of Jane's Fighters Anthology. In 2000, I finally got a PC of my own and Jane's USAF became the game of choice for its F-4E. By 2002, I had the original "Walmart" release of SFP1 in my hands and have been flying it ever since.

I have been combing the internet for years trying to improve my F-4 simulation experience. Along they way, I had pilfered some cockpit photos to texture F-4 pits for Strike Fighters. Besides your website, I had encountered another great source (especially for instrument panel photos). While I didn't ask permission, I had at least credited the source for the photos when I released free cockpit texture mods to the public. Instead of being angry, the website owner was happy with what I had done, so he recognized my work on his site (Streak Eagle high resolution cockpit): http://aviation.watergeek.eu/f4b-panel.html

Your cockpit texture looks sweet.

I have some video of my old sim using Janes as well. When they were developing Strike Fighters I was contacted for info. I have to admit I never really used it. I no longer fly games at a desktop computer, any flight time is in a cockpit. Im at a point where I want my sim time to be applicable to real world flying.

Dayton has that Navy F-4 cockpit (not a sim) thats painted Air Force.

Last year at Cockpit-Fest Steve Blevins F-4 cockpit won the grand prize. Ironically, its an Air Force F-4 painted Navy!

Flying with ATC adds a whole new dimension in realism. Check out some audio here, http://www.pilotedge.net/audio/2013-04-06

Im using the Alpha Sim Navy F-4J with FS9. I know there are Phantoms for X but Ive not looked into them. At Cockpit-Fest we are networking FS9, FSx, and XP9 sim through PilotEdge. Its a nice feature that it can network those different platforms. It would rock if DSC could be integrated too.

For the time being, I need to finish building the main support frame for the seat that includes the headrest and ejection d-ring handles. Once the seat is finished, I will go back fill, sand, and paint everything.

I actually really like the seat on this one! It's nice and simple. Thanks for the idea. :thumbup:

I have the whole seat in Sketchup... but I need to finish the seat, then go back and make the Sketchup file match the final results.

Also, my original intent was to build the seat without using any real parts. Now that I have some real parts and know the correct dimensions, I may go back and build a 2nd seat completely out of wood and make my own cushions. Then my son and I would have side-by-side ejection seats for our computer room. I intend to publish the final sketchup files as an alternative to those who would prefer an old Martin-Baker H7 to an ACES seat.

Spent about 8 or 9 hours adding the headrest.

I didn't have enough time to make the seat height adjustable.

For now it is screwed into a fixed all the way down position... which fits me just fine.

Now I just need the face curtain/pull rings at the top.

I might go ahead and fill/sand/paint when I get the time and the weather isn't too cold/too hot/too humid.

Finally made some progress. I have tried to get the upper ejection handles on ebay twice and failed to win the auction. I could spend a lot of money ordering from the same site that had the survival kit, parachute pack, and cushion. Or I could fabricate an imitation.

Looks great :thumbup: Did you get the stuff at FlightHelmet.com?

Cheers

Hans

Seat cushion, survival pack, and parachute pack/headrest all came from FlightHelmet.com. Everything else that is real came from eBay.

After image shack changed their business model, all of my image links went away. So I sprinkled a few similar pic attachments through this thread in their place.

I got tired of cleaning the long linear pot for pitch that would get too spikey after a few days and I needed the full buttons of the Warthog stick for flying advanced aircraft like... the Warthog. So, I removed the real F-4 stick, bought an extension for the Warthog stick to give it almost exactly the same range of displacement as the real stick, then plugged the hole in the box and mounted the Warthog to be at the same height as the real stick.

The only loss in the change besides the look of it was the difference in the feel. The centering spring I used for pitch provided excellent feedback on how far the stick was being pulled back with very realistic linearly increasing force. The Warthog springs are adequate for centering (despite the extension), but offer no real resistance/feedback.

The gain besides all the extra switches/hats was in precision with no spikes or maintenance required. I can also swap out different stick grips such as Bauer's KG13 and VKB grips presently available and perhaps some future ones being advertised here on the forums. If I had a spare Warthog serial communication board, I have an extra B-8 grip I could adapt to the Warthog, making it nearly identical to my real F-4 stick.

Awesome! I like what you did to hide that warthog stick cable :thumbup:

Latest revision with VKB stick and Jetseat SE.

Now that's a MAN'S stick

Love the Phantom, can't believe it's not in DCS yet. I remember as a kid seeing them at airshows when they were still in service. They where always the best show there and all they did was fast passes just shy of the big boom. Then seeing those two big cherries as they turned. Freaking awesome!!

I'd own one if I had 4 million dollars

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Jets&make=MCDONNELL+DOUGLAS&model=F-4+PHANTOM&listing_id=2315633&s-type=aircraft&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnNXiBRCoARIsAJe_1crCq2qrReHzH9H86m0Ujomr3VWdEjlQ4gNtZ4CP4lb6rUb1g-YRiJcaAsvaEALw_wcB

Very nice. How did you plan/build the seat?

1. I collected every decent hi-res photo I could from the internet. One particular photo was almost a perfect profile with virtually no distortion due to the distance/zoom being used.

2. I bought a couple of different 1/32 scale cockpit/seat upgrades and a micrometer.

3. I went to the National Naval Aviation Museum in Penscola and took some real-world measurements.

4. I bought the actual survival kit/lower seat cushion, headrest/parachute pack, headrest mount, and lumbar support seat back cushion.

5. I built a 3d model in sketchup to match the shape of the profile photo with the measurements I generated from the models, museum visit, and the parts I bought.

The 3d model was built using wood thickness dimensions that are readily available at local Home Depot/Lowes stores. I measured points from the 3d model onto the wood and cut away using hand tools like circular saws and jig saws. I did not use nails. I drilled countersunk holes and used a number of screws that makes it look a lot like the actual riveted frame. The heavy wood I used combined with a crazy number of screws means that this thing has withstood years of me climbing in and out of it without getting loose/wobbly or showing any signs of cracking. I need to update my sketchup drawing into two forms: one that is the final as-built drawing and one that can be built without buying any of the original seat parts, which would cut the cost down a bit for very little loss in scale appearance.

I was less focused on precisely matching details like oxygen bottles and rivet patterns and more focused on replicating the physical geometry of the seat. The one feature of the real seat that I wanted to replicate was the adjustable height. The entire bucket with the survival pack and lower seat cushion can be raised/lowered to get the pilot's head in line with the gunsight and head rest. I needed some sort of sliding rails for the bucket, support legs for the main frame that leans back, and an electric screw drive or winch system to raise/lower the seat. Instead, I put the seat at what I believe is the fully lowered position or perhaps a typical height based on cockpit photos and attached the seat to the vertical frame. This allowed be to omit any kind of supports to the rear and/or sides of the vertical frame and makes the seat a fixed one-piece unit that can easily be moved. The seat is attached to the floor board using velcro strips as are the rudder pedals. I normally keep the seat positioned to match the geometry of the F-4 cockpit, but I can move it a few inches to the rear or about one inch forward as required/desired for comfort or to try to match the geometry of other cockpits relative to the center stick position.

This is the original sketchup project used to design my seat and plan for a future cockpit as yet unbuilt aside from the side console.

I now have throttle handles and the panels around the throttle. I have to engineer a way to mount the handles based on photos of the real thing and figure out how to connect them to a Warthog throttle base. I will probably end up using radio control throttle cable to convert the movement of the throttle levers into movement on the Warthog throttle... but I am not sure yet. First I have to mount the throttle handles in a way that the replicate the original and have the finger lift detents.