unknown Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Hi all, i did a run with the FA-18 in my little test/practice mission and i noticed something with the IFF behaviour that i never saw before. I had locked a Tu-142 and it was showing as "hostile" in my HUD, shot my first AIM-7 and it missed, shot my second AIM-7 and it missed/hit? It exploded near the Tu-142 but didn't kill/damage the Tu enough to crash it. It was then that i noticed that my target box - the diamond - changed to the box - friendly identified by IFF - for a couple seconds. I paused the game immediately to take a screenshot(pic 1) and after a couple of seconds it changed back from box to diamond(pic 2). After shooting it down with my third AIM-7 i quit the mission and saved the track to review it but sadly it didn't show what was happening, could be because of pausing the game to take the screenshots or because of taking off from the carrier(that's always causing trouble with my replays), i atteched it nonetheless. Has anybody observed this behaviour too? It was the first time for me and i play this mission a lot and never noticed this before. I will try to reproduce this. Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1 System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 I did a little further testing. Placed the FA-18 in the ME and a Tu-142, took off and after my AIM-7 hit the Tu my targeting box went again from "hostile" to "friendly" and after some seconds back to "hostile". You can see this in the Video(should be 1440p after YT finished processing it) and in the track file - FA-18C_IFF2. After that i replaced the Tu-142 with a Mig-29A and after my AIM-7 hit the Mig it also went from "hostile" to "friendly", but the one AIM-7 connecting was enough for the Mig and it crashed into the see - FA-18C_IFF3. I know all this is WIP/EA/Beta... Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1 System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_auau Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 also you will notice if you fly level and turn it also changes from a diamond to a sqaure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) also you will notice if you fly level and turn it also changes from a diamond to a sqaure I have to disagree with that. Left HUD a friendly plane and the right HUD a hostile plane, both in a bank - box stays a box and diamond stays a diamond. Edited June 24, 2018 by unknown Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1 System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adixylian Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Ahh those Russians, hacking the IFF systems even in DCS [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doum76 Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I have to disagree with that. Left HUD a friendly plane and the right HUD a hostile plane, both in a bank - box stays a box and diamond stays a diamond. Damn, the should swap this for a circle instead of a square, so it'll stay circle no matter they bank angle we get. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_auau Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I have to disagree with that. Left HUD a friendly plane and the right HUD a hostile plane, both in a bank - box stays a box and diamond stays a diamond. was watching this at the end of the video you see it bbeing a diamond and than looking like a square Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 was watching this at the end of the video you see it bbeing a diamond and than looking like a square :thumbup: Thats the same behaviour that i see, AFTER his AIM-7 hit the target the diamond changed to a box symbol not before and also the diamond stays a diamond as he banks. Also if you lock a friendly aircraft you have to move it into your HUD to be sure that it is friendly, had it that it showed as a diamond until i put the diamond in the HUD and it switched to a box. Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1 System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skypirate Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 :thumbup: Also if you lock a friendly aircraft you have to move it into your HUD to be sure that it is friendly, had it that it showed as a diamond until i put the diamond in the HUD and it switched to a box. Was wondering about the same, locked a tanker and while outside of hud it was diamond. Once in the hud changed to square. Is that how iff is supposed to work? How about indication on the radar screen e.g. different style marker"? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]Regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmidtfire Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I find this video really interesting. Beginning @ 2:15 Pilot locks target at 8nm, you can clearly see the square targetbox with a SHOOT cue. At 4.3nm the square changes to a diamond and we hear the radio call "Good sniff - Mig21!" indicating that the Hornet's system now has identified the target as a MiG21. So my guess is that IFF and ID result actually takes some time IRL. Range and aspect might also be a factor. Maybe someone else know more about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) I find this video really interesting. Beginning @ 2:15 Pilot locks target at 8nm, you can clearly see the square targetbox with a SHOOT cue. At 4.3nm the square changes to a diamond and we hear the radio call "Good sniff - Mig21!" indicating that the Hornet's system now has identified the target as a MiG21. So my guess is that IFF and ID result actually takes some time IRL. Range and aspect might also be a factor. Maybe someone else know more about this? Mode 4 ID should be very quick. The Hornet radar is supposed to have a feature where it can get a read on the shape of the target and ID the type based on that. Perhaps that’s what he’s referring to? It’s discussed a bit in “Bogeys and Bandits” by Robert Gandt (just started reading it). Though apparently it wasn’t sufficient enough to satisfy Gulf War ROE PID requirements... https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B005SHNO4E/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o00_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I think this feature is supposed to eventually make it to the DCS Hornet... (edit: TBH I can’t find again where I read this... maybe I’m dreaming ;) ) Edited June 25, 2018 by Sandman1330 Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 " The Hornet radar is supposed to have a feature where it can get a read on the shape of the target and ID the type based on that. Perhaps that’s what he’s referring to? " You are referring to NCTR which works on Engine returns ... not Shape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1330 Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 " The Hornet radar is supposed to have a feature where it can get a read on the shape of the target and ID the type based on that. Perhaps that’s what he’s referring to? " You are referring to NCTR which works on Engine returns ... not Shape Yes, thanks! I was searching and searching to find out where I’d read that, and found it just as you posted. I was beginning to wonder if I had dreamt it up... but yes, it appears to work off of engine fan blade configuration, though I think it’s still very hush hush... Ryzen 7 5800X3D / Asus Crosshair VI Hero X370 / Corsair H110i / Sapphire Nitro+ 6800XT / 32Gb G.Skill TridentZ 3200 / Samsung 980 Pro M.2 / Virpil Warbrd base + VFX and TM grips / Virpil CM3 Throttle / Saitek Pro Combat pedals / Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 NCTR is pretty much public knowledge nowadays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmidtfire Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 What will cause that change from square to diamond, IFF only or IFF+NCTR? In the Fighter Pilot Podcast the pilot in the video talked about NCTR against an older system like MiG21 there was a high "confidence level" because it has been in the library for a long time. At the time the square changes to a diamond (in video) the NCTR has identified the target as a Mig21. If the F/A-18 system needs NCTR ID to produce the diamond I totally understand the delay, as the system must process radar returns and run it against a library of known threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 That's really interesting. I would be kinda suprised if NCTR is playing a role in the aircrafts IFF system. I always thought that NCTR is just displaying the target aircraft type to the pilot, but not that it is factored into the aircrafts IFF system? :huh: I'm also suprised, that the target is beeing shown as friendly by default. I always thought that targets are beeing shown as hostile/unkown by default and will only be shown as friendly after a positive IFF response? Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 NCTR does not have any input to the TD being a diamond or a square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmidtfire Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Okay. Thanks for clarifying IvanK. But that means that the usual IFF takes some time from lock to identification of friend or foe? In video the target is locked first as a square but then changes to a diamond. Or is the IFF interrogation something that the pilot must do manually by pushing a button? Sorry, just trying to wrap my head around it all ;) To me it serms like IFF is a process and not so instant. Then again, this video is from early 1990s, so maybe things like this has changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvanK Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 There are a number of ways the interrogation can happen automatically (if enabled) or by a manual command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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