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Old 02-08-2019, 12:37 AM   #31
Kev2go
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Originally Posted by ShadowXP View Post

Know what the easiest sign of a bad craftsman is? He's the one that blames the tools and not himself.

Sure, the Tiger doesn't have all the latest bells and whistles like the 9X, 120's and whatnots, but it can still be a very nasty surprise to anyone fighting it. I've seen many cocky pilots in both the Hornet and Flankers eat it bigtime because they underestimated the little jet that could (and can).

The correct tactic is half the fight, just as using the correct tool is half the job. Know your aircraft, know your tactics and know your enemy, and you'll come out on top more often than not.
yup tell that to Syrian pilots who got shot down en masse in their Mig21 and Mig23's ( 85 aircraft shot down) when propped against Israeli piloted Eagles and Vipers back in 1982. All within in a single day mind you.

i can already anticpate the response "Oh its not that thier poor technology, its because they were poorly trained" OK fine lets use other examples: veteran USAF F15 pilots ( even those cross trained in F22) facing off in red flag against F22 Raptors being totally helpless never knowing what hit them, or similarly to the REd flag Aggressor F16 pilots who got "massacred" by newly minted F35 pilots ( 20-1 kill ratio)

The F5 is really a inexpensive lightweight tactical fighter from cold war time period where it was expected to go up against the likes of the aircraft like the Mig21, ( that in fact contemporary balance was one of BST stated reason for being added) and not be expected to have any real shot against Information Networked 4th gen spamrammers and / or those with armed with HOBS IR missiles. Sure you get kills every now and then ( after all not everyone flying 4th gen has a comparable virtual of skill to a real life contemporary pilot of an aircraft ), but there comes a point where there is such a huge technological leap that you cant blame the pilot for not being able to come out on top most of the time.
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:49 PM   #32
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Fair point, but with the stuff we'll have in DCS for the foreseeable future, the F-5 is going to be viable. If it can compete with Eagles, Hornets, Mirage and Flankers when flown very well, you're already hanging with the most capable A2A designs DCS will have for some time.

For now, we don't need to worry about Raptors running 40:0 KDR's on public servers.
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:37 PM   #33
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For me the real question is... WHEN WE'LL GET THE LEAFLEET BOMBS???? ... i want to plaster the enemy with propaganda
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:32 PM   #34
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Fair point, but with the stuff we'll have in DCS for the foreseeable future, the F-5 is going to be viable. If it can compete with Eagles, Hornets, Mirage and Flankers when flown very well, you're already hanging with the most capable A2A designs DCS will have for some time.

For now, we don't need to worry about Raptors running 40:0 KDR's on public servers.

yes the F5 is very dangerous and competitive... IN cold war servers where aircraft types are limited largely to 3rd generation ( IE Mig21's)

Just because once in a while good players manage to bag some green singleton Eagle or Hornet driver doesn't mean its a competitive aircraft, (especially not if using "air quake" which aren't realistic setups and more akin to the sort of environments found in arcade games like War Blunder or WOW. ) flying blind and asymmetrically against the most potent fighters out there. It should also be taken into consideration that some of its opponents its facing are EA aircraft that aren't as potent as they should because they lack many advanced function. performance gap will be even wider, and its only going to get even tougher for the vintage aircraft as SA/ datalinking features get gradually added, and advanced radar modes ( IE TWS, NTCR etc) are included for The Hornet, contemporary features that will be also present on the future Viper module.



Its RL service history would be considered at best a "Draw" when it was pitted against Mig21 and Mig23's. ( IRan iraq war). USAF ceased using it for aggressor training in 1990. and instead used F16's to simulate Mig29's for a more relevant and more capable threat, and to an extent the USN is also been using older HOrnets as Fulcrum stand ins rather than using an entire fleet of F5's, although it should be noted that the Navys Tigers are F5N's which are not the exact same F5E's we are accustomed to in DCS ( new radar, Mulifunction display, INS & GPS navigation, digital radios)
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:33 PM   #35
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It can't. You're literally relying on poorly performing pilots as opponents in order to 'compete'.

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If it can compete with
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:27 PM   #36
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how silly
the loser is always poorly performing

that's why he loses

trying to attack his argument through that avenue is a bad idea. a level playing field amounts to nothing more than a fool's game of lots, why would you want that?
tactics are exactly for forcing the enemy to become poor performers through denial of information and position. cheap wins against poor performers is desirable.

your defense of technology forces you to abandon the validity of tactics when they should be complimentary. what you want to say is that the technological edge allows you even more ways to drive in cheap wins.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:38 PM   #37
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No, what I want to say is that the F-5 is not competitive.

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what you want to say is that the technological edge allows you even more ways to drive in cheap wins.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:50 AM   #38
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No, what I want to say is that the F-5 is not competitive.
Except, it is.

The F-5E is fully capable of challenging and defeating any other aircraft in DCS. I'm far from the hottest ace around, and I've done it more than once with favorable KDR over time against Mirages, Flankers and Eagles, if that means anything.

Maybe we have a different definition of "competitive," but I find that the F-5 is capable of threatening anything else in DCS' skies. I'd say that makes it "competitive." I would not say "dominant" or anything, but "competitive" in that it *can and does compete*, absolutely.

You have to be on your game if you're fighting any 4th generation aircraft, but there's a reason the F-5 has been frustrating BFM students for so long. It's tiny, agile, and hard to see. No radar system is perfect, ditto for BVR missiles. WVR with AIM-9P-5's and guns, and good tactics, you can make anyone else poop their pants.

If I was flying in actual combat, sure, I'd be scared shitless if flying our F-5 against a Flanker or similar. However, in DCS, which of what we're talking about, my experience has been that the F-5 can compete just fine with newer jets, but *only* with practice, good tactics, and preferably a good team.

Biggest problem I have with the F-5 is its well-known low engine power and lack of IFF interrogator...combined with the difficulty in DCS of spotting and identifying planes, you really are at a disadvantage in that respect. As you close to WVR to make a kill, setting up your attack and not even knowing if your contact is hostile or not, well, that sucks. Hence, teamwork.

If we're just going to compare stats and decide a winner, we don't even need to fly to decide the contest. Flying, though, as much as we do in DCS, there's too many variables to say. It's different every time.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:02 PM   #39
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Folks, as much as I love oldie aircraft, I must say discussion here looks a bit emotional.

Yes, you can compete in an F-5 or MiG-21, if your opponent in 4th gen planes somehow screw up, and you play all the cards right at the same time.

If you go up against an equal skilled opponent, or even a somewhat lower skilled one, you chances are close to nil.

Whether we talk about F-15C, Su-27,33,MiG-29,F-18,Mirage, upcoming F-14, F-16, and JF-17, these are all:
- Much better in thrust department
- Much better in maneuvering
- Much better with their avionics
- Much easier and forgiving to fly

Perhaps, when it comes, a badly flown F-14A can be a closer thing where you can be competitive against a slightly lower skill pilot. Even then it is iffy.

What people argue here is, it REQUIRES your opponent in a 4th gen plane to screw up, considerably, either in situational awareness or flight departments. Performance and tech difference is signifcant enough that, they can probably still get away with less than really bad levels of screwups, while you have to be flying your F-5 nearly perfect to have any hope.
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:12 PM   #40
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Except, it is.
It's not.

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If we're just going to compare stats and decide a winner, we don't even need to fly to decide the contest. Flying, though, as much as we do in DCS, there's too many variables to say. It's different every time.
There are not 'too many variables'.

You're basically claiming that you beat an F40 with a VW Bug and so the VW bug is competitive. Your opponents are simply not up to the task.
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