stuck on grass

Damage model and management are weak spot of DCS. At first, just stucking in plain grassland using hard differential braking is given to inapropriate or bad taxing skills, which is partially true but also visual inspection of unpaved surfaces opened a question of ground softness modelling and indication of nonexistent flight state transformation coding, in short, ground rolls and flight are not connected thats why touching grass on the edge of runway with 90% weight being neutralised by lift force is same as full weight roll on farmland that makes planes instantly explode. This off the procedure behavior surely isn't peactime practice but in scramble flight it is vitally imortant. In any dynamic campaign where life count matters getting total damage on overshooting the runway or rolling over grass on final stage of takeoff kills a lot of fun. Prop planes are mostly affected by this as they have in RL situations used lot of unprepared strips for operations. Fixing this highly polarized behaviour would make MP arena better for sure as damage evaluation after battle and corelated repair time would also be great too but if grass can kill your plane easy then it should be fixed first.

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This off the procedure behavior surely isn't peactime practice but in scramble flight it is vitally imortant. In any dynamic campaign where life count matters getting total damage on overshooting the runway or rolling over grass on final stage of takeoff kills a lot of fun.

What does peacetime vs. dynamic campaign have to do with overshooting a runway on take-off?

I was under the impression that an aircraft safely airborne is more important than an aircraft that might be airborne a minute earlier with intersection take-off, or might end up with wrecked landing gear and unable to perform the mission, potentially even blocking an entire airport with an emergency landing.

I keep thinking that you're doing something wrong, and your insistence that DCS must be fixed in order to forgive your wrong-doing is somewhat mind-boggling. But hats off to an entertaining thread. ;)

Damage model and management are weak spot of DCS. At first, just stucking in plain grassland using hard differential braking is given to inapropriate or bad taxing skills, which is partially true but also visual inspection of unpaved surfaces opened a question of ground softness modelling and indication of nonexistent flight state transformation coding, in short, ground rolls and flight are not connected thats why touching grass on the edge of runway with 90% weight being neutralised by lift force is same as full weight roll on farmland that makes planes instantly explode. This off the procedure behavior surely isn't peactime practice but in scramble flight it is vitally imortant.

God! Do you have any idea, what a scramble actually is? Or what a QRF does?

The most time is saved through pre-aligning and keeping the avionics powered.

On actual scramble the taxi roll and start is done "by the book" with checklist and everything. That is unless you play a game and "lifes" are available as respawns.

And for the umpteenth time: planes do not immediately explode on touching the grass! They explode when they touch "uneven surfaces" with a high enough speed, and depending on the SFM vs. PFM/AFM/EFM you notice the gear breaking and hammering the plane into the ground or simply a big explosion, indicating that you messed up big time!

I just yesterday had a very bad long landing in the AV-8B and shot over a runway rolled for quite some 200m ok, to finally notice a change in ground (wobbly and ripped my nose gear of and BOOM).

On another roll on grassland, when trying a road landing I rolled of the street with less speed and could safely traverse back on the road... Without exploding.

In any dynamic campaign where life count matters getting total damage on overshooting the runway or rolling over grass on final stage of takeoff kills a lot of fun. Prop planes are mostly affected by this as they have in RL situations used lot of unprepared strips for operations. Fixing this highly polarized behaviour would make MP arena better for sure as damage evaluation after battle and corelated repair time would also be great too but if grass can kill your plane easy then it should be fixed first.

How about people learn the basic skills to fly, taxi and land a prop plane before complaining that they loose too many "lives" before they join a dynamic campaign where life count matters (wouldn't a life in reality not matter)?

I mean really, it took me about a month to manage halfway decent taxi, take off and landing in the Bf.109 alone, I still struggle with landing a FW-109 and Spitfire. That is totally normal and a big part of flying one of the most realistic combat flight simulations available today.

You can crash your Prop plane simply by holding the brake when rolling a tad bit too fast, but I never had an "immediate" explosion on grass in a prop plane. Never.

I tipped over, when transiting from the grass field onto the parking area (concrete), as I was too fast and there is a bums on the border. I managed to rip off my tail on touch down on a field when I messed up my trim, but usually you either slide over ground until you stop, or you tumble over and start burning, but never had I experienced an exploding piston engine plane unless you really crashed hard / fast into the ground...

Its not about wrongdoing its bad damage and flight transition modeling mostly. Terrain shouldnt be all swamp or concrete.

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Terrain shouldnt be all swamp or concrete.

And that's why (as you've repeatedly had demonstrated to you,) it isn't

Its not about wrongdoing its bad damage and flight transition modeling mostly. Terrain shouldnt be all swamp or concrete.

 

 

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Here is yet another little demo video this with a Bf.109 taxiing on grass, taking off from "swamp" and landing on grass. Pretty hard, actually not my best landing by far, as I last flew the Kurfürst a couple months ago. IRL the plane would have been grounded to check the gear... so effectively my poor landing would have been a mission kill. In DCS you can just take off again...

If you watch closely on the external view, you notice how the "bad flight transition modeling" dynamically interacts with the ground modeling. The struts and suspension of the gear moves with each bump on rough ground, on my hard touchdown, the mass/downward velocity equation let the suspension hit the limit, visibly and audibly.

Now, when you can't be bothered to learn landing on grass and fields, as it is obviously too difficult for you as you "always explode" or "got stuck", I recommend either invest some time in learning the basics of flying airplane, or shift your focus to a more gamelike franchise? :huh:

Video:

Its not about wrongdoing its bad damage and flight transition modeling mostly. Terrain shouldnt be all swamp or concrete. ...

The terrain varies with location. Mostly, though, it's about the modeling of the interaction of the landing gear and the ground for a particular aircraft, especially third party aircraft. The MiG-21, for instance, can't land on the same ground that a number of other aircraft can. You'll touch down successfully in the MiG-21, start to roll out, and suddenly your nosegear will dig in and you blow up. That would seem to be a limitation of the aircraft modeling rather than terrain, especially when other aircraft can land successfully on the same piece of ground.

Seeing this comedy goldmine from the OP, I can only say that perhaps DCS isn't for you and you should go look for another high-fidelity taxi-sim where types of ground are properly modeled to react with the flight model who support different ground types and flight transitions 100% accurately.

On the other side, I do enjoy a good laugh at times so just keep it going.

(...)Prop planes are mostly affected by this as they have in RL situations used lot of unprepared strips for operations. Fixing this highly polarized behaviour would make MP arena better for sure as damage evaluation after battle and corelated repair time would also be great too but if grass can kill your plane easy then it should be fixed first.

That's why I used the Bf.109 to demonstrate how you can easily taxi,stop, take-off and land from grass or fields, as improvised strips.

I am pretty sure even a MiG-21 in real life does not simply land on a dirty field or meadow.

An improvised airstrip is usually checked and prepared by engineers, first. Often the ground is hardened with a roller and/or prepared with steel-matting or the like. Permafrost in Sibiria makes it possible to land a plane without this preparations, but though ad-hoc runways in Sibiria make for good footage it isn't available everywhere... :smartass:

Wow this thread reached that many pages :shocking:

I posted the same thing when I started, but then other's explained the huge forces working down on those wheels, but that was for A-10A, A-10C ...

I guess it really is annoying thing to a lot, well, if it's reality, it's just reality.

But I would think that the dirt around the airfield should be a bit sturdy since it's just sitting there and probably more compact than most other dirt, maybe some kind of a compromise could be made so the airfield grass has lesser effect.

I mean, the farmland dirt is like all uneven and probably to have a much bigger hooking effect when wheeels come in contact and should make landing and taxiing on there a nightmare, but then again wheels could also be snapped off and the fuselage would keep sliding for a bit, hopefully the new DMs will improve this insta-blowup thing.

Wow this thread reached that many pages :shocking:

 

I posted the same thing when I started, but then other's explained the huge forces working down on those wheels, but that was for A-10A, A-10C ...

 

I guess it really is annoying thing to a lot, well, if it's reality, it's just reality.

 

But I would think that the dirt around the airfield should be a bit sturdy since it's just sitting there and probably more compact than most other dirt, maybe some kind of a compromise could be made so the airfield grass has lesser effect.

 

I mean, the farmland dirt is like all uneven and probably to have a much bigger hooking effect when wheeels come in contact and should make landing and taxiing on there a nightmare, but then again wheels could also be snapped off and the fuselage would keep sliding for a bit, hopefully the new DMs will improve this insta-blowup thing.

It takes a bit of practice and careful handling of the plane, of course.

Ironhand showed it for the Su-27, I made a quick demo video for the Bf.109... Only the few remaining planes with SFM can't do it due to limitations in the modeling of forces and damage.

Also a lot(!) of real life subject matter experts have said it, showed pictures, videos of how easily aircraft can get stuck, or damage the landing gear even a couple inches beside the tarmac. ;)

I recommend to watch the Videos in this thread, demonstrating how you can Taxi, take off, and land from the "sturdy grass" around airfields, or depending on weight/forces on any grassy plane in the game.

 

It takes a bit of practice and careful handling of the plane, of course.

 

Ironhand showed it for the Su-27, I made a quick demo video for the Bf.109... Only the few remaining planes with SFM can't do it due to limitations in the modeling of forces and damage.

 

Also a lot(!) of real life subject matter experts have said it, showed pictures, videos of how easily aircraft can get stuck, or damage the landing gear even a couple inches beside the tarmac. ;)

Question, wouldn't it be more realistic for grass/sand around an airfield to have a variable hardness-softness dependent on precipitation and weather I would guess this could be accomplished by seasons quite easily ground soft in spring hard in winter. I would think in RL the softness of the ground and weight of the aircraft and its landing gear design would determine how easily or resistant to sinking and getting stuck in chance a aircraft runs off the runway or tarmac. thanks.

Question, wouldn't it be more realistic for grass/sand around an airfield to have a variable hardness-softness dependent on precipitation and weather I would guess this could be accomplished by seasons quite easily ground soft in spring hard in winter. I would think in RL the softness of the ground and weight of the aircraft and its landing gear design would determine how easily or resistant to sinking and getting stuck in chance a aircraft runs off the runway or tarmac. thanks.

The current modeling of ground behaviour and forces is pretty detailed, already.

So unless we focus on "DCS Soil Simulator" , I dare say it is a very low priority to further detail the already good ground behaviour.

If I think if "damage modeling" in realistic flight simulations that have no combat focus, the realistic handling, bouncing and gear/plane damage is already superior to any pop up with "You crashed! Start again y/n".

Some planes are built for landing on "unimproved" fields. I landed and taxied a P15 in the grass beside a field.

Some planes are built for landing on "unimproved" fields. I landed and taxied a P15 in the grass beside a field.

sounds like people are counting on the fact that if they pitch a fit enough, ED will succumb and modify this feature - don't do it ED

Question, wouldn't it be more realistic for grass/sand around an airfield to have a variable hardness-softness dependent on precipitation and weather I would guess this could be accomplished by seasons quite easily ground soft in spring hard in winter. I would think in RL the softness of the ground and weight of the aircraft and its landing gear design would determine how easily or resistant to sinking and getting stuck in chance a aircraft runs off the runway or tarmac. thanks.

If you wanted to page through all 10000 posts here, you'd find that it already has variable hardness. Some areas you sink into easier than others. It is not, nor does it need to be super detailed at this point, as you shouldn't typically be in the dirt with your aircraft, barring a crash landing, despite what some people say here. "Improvised" and "minimally prepared" are not the same thing as "random farmer's field".

As Combined Arms gets reworked, we may see some improvement on the soil modeling, but I wouldn't hold my breath on anything major on that front.

To newcomers to this thread :

This thread is dozens of pages long, with thousands of posts. Before you post, ask yourself "What are the odds what I'm about to say something that hasn't been suggested or argued several dozen times already?" If you're interested in the topic, skim through a few pages and look for the videos and evidence that has been offered.

Try and taxi a UH-1H with the nose and rudder peddles buried in the concrete it's very disconcerting.

Try and taxi a UH-1H with the nose and rudder peddles buried in the concrete it's very disconcerting.

:huh: can you be a bit more precise? I regularly fly the Huey. Taxiing has never been a problem, neither was it a problem to hover in ground effect on any concrete, grassland, meadows, or whatever, including buildings... I mean, it is a helicopter after all. :dunno:

:huh: can you be a bit more precise? I regularly fly the Huey. Taxiing has never been a problem, neither was it a problem to hover in ground effect on any concrete, grassland, meadows, or whatever, including buildings... I mean, it is a helicopter after all. :dunno:

Well here are just a couple of captures clearly showing the front end of the Huey + skids buried in the concrete as I taxi around. This has also happened in fields and various airports. Just because it has not happened to you does not mean it does not happen to others. I don't make things up. At 59 years of age, there is no point son.

Lighten up, no-one accused you of making things up ;) Anyway, this has never happened to me either. Which particular airfield is that so I could run some tests on my own?

Well here are just a couple of captures clearly showing the front end of the Huey + skids buried in the concrete as I taxi around. This has also happened in fields and various airports. Just because it has not happened to you does not mean it does not happen to others. I don't make things up. At 59 years of age, there is no point son.

And just to mention, I didn't mean it does not happen, I couldn't understand what the problem was. The screenshots helped with that.

If you taxi like you would do in a real helicopter unless you have suicidal tendencies, this won't happen. You lift the weight until you are "light on the skids", adjust the pedals to counter the torque and increase lift and pedal input until you hover at about 2-3 ft and taxi slowly(!) to the runway/pad for take off. With only 1 foot ground clearance you really ask for disaster...

The real problem here is, should ED put development time into modeling borderline suicidal maneuvers no one would ever risk IRL correctly, or not.

My personal opinion is, especially compared to other flight simulations on the market the ground modeling is pretty detailed and realistic if you don't try "stupid" things, but that is just me.

Maybe if enough people ask and complain, we get "DCS: Lawnmowers" with utterly realistic gras, soil and friction simulation?

Until then I can think of a hundred things more important to invest development ressources into.

Just keep in mind the original post was about airplanes that "cannot taxi on grass", what has definitely been shown as very well possible and even unevenness of terrain is modeled. So yes, if you dig the nose and skids into the ground the Huey model allows to partly pass a few inch under the soil, the alternative as far as I am aware is currently to have it float a couple inches above the ground at all times...

Well here are just a couple of captures clearly showing the front end of the Huey + skids buried in the concrete as I taxi around.

Like msalama said, if you can tell us the exact location, we might be able to confirm if there's a problem in DCS. Personally, I don't recall such problems with runways or taxiways. Also, a track (recording of the flight) is always very useful for figuring such things out! :thumbup:

Anyway, you should probably open a new thread, because it seems more or less unrelated to the topic of this one.

The real problem here is, should ED put development time into modeling borderline suicidal maneuvers no one would ever risk IRL correctly, or not.

From the description and screenshots, I'm not sure how you get the impression that FireCat does something borderline suicidal. If I read the description correctly that runways appear to be "sticky" or that there are invisible yet solid barriers, that's certainly a problem that would justify development resources, wouldn't you agree?

Like msalama said, if you can tell us the exact location, we might be able to confirm if there's a problem in DCS. Personally, I don't recall such problems with runways or taxiways. Also, a track (recording of the flight) is always very useful for figuring such things out!

 

Anyway, you should probably open a new thread, because it seems more or less unrelated to the topic of this one.

 

 

 

From the description and screenshots, I'm not sure how you get the impression that FireCat does something borderline suicidal. If I read the description correctly that runways appear to be "sticky" or that there are invisible yet solid barriers, that's certainly a problem that would justify development resources, wouldn't you agree?

In my experience, the only way to get this result is to taxi very low and fast, so a slight change in ground effect or a bit oversteering on the cyclic makes you touch the ground and tip over.

I don't understand it as "barriers", from the description.

@ Fire Cat - If this is related to some effect, like hitting a solid obstacle, please let us know, together with the airport and maybe taxiway, so we can test if this is specific to a certain airport and its model.

Still going strong, I see.