ED Team NineLine Posted June 12, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) I see what you are saying but my point, possibly not clear, was that it's the cooling of the intake airflow not actually cooling the engine itself that would be providing any immediate power increase. Just seemed misleading to me the way it is worded. Sorry, I had totally missed your point, you are saying it doesnt point out the primary function of the system... It does explain that on page 26 though, that the primary effect is anti-detonation... Edited June 12, 2014 by NineLine Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-MadCat- Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Page 72, markings on the throttle lever. Correct translations should be: Aus (Off) Anlassen (Engine Start) or just (Start) Steigen (Climb) Start (Takeoff) Greetings MadCat Link -> Stateful button commands for many DCS modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Sorry, I had totally missed your point, you are saying it doesnt point out the primary function of the system... Wellll.... not exactly. "Turning the system on immediately increases engine power by almost 100 HP due to the fact that a cooler engine can pull in more air" This specific statement. Is it really correct? Is lowered engine temperature the true cause of this immediate 100 hp? I'm trying to pose my question as delicately as possible. Most of my knowledge of such systems is for radial engines and carbs...and admittedly they are a bit different but as far as I know the theory of operation on each are fairly similar. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 12, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'll have to ask, how its written in Janes seems different... but if I remember correctly when talking to Yo-Yo, he said something similar to what is written in the DCS manual... Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Agree Merlin. Someone is confused. The only way to cool the engine is by the radiators (coolant and oil) and that certainly isn't immediate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2014 Agree Merlin. Someone is confused. The only way to cool the engine is by the radiators (coolant and oil) and that certainly isn't immediate. That isnt true. The MW-50 does cool as I understand it. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oesau Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Engine Temp – I would assume they are referring to the intake temp and thus the temp of the charge in the cylinder prior to compression and ignition cycle. By adding the water into the intake you are effectively cooling the pre charge of air and also increasing its density. This means you drive the engine harder (more rpm’s) without premature detonation of the charge. This was the German answer to not having as much access to higher octane fuel supplies that the allies had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Engine Temp – I would assume they are referring to the intake temp and thus the temp of the charge in the cylinder prior to compression and ignition cycle. By adding the water into the intake you are effectively cooling the pre charge of air and also increasing its density. This means you drive the engine harder (more rpm’s) without premature detonation of the charge. This was the German answer to not having as much access to higher octane fuel supplies that the allies had. Yes. Roger. 100% agree with you on the function and purpose. Similarly, water injection on the R-2800 was to achieve the same goal. The ability to push the engine a little harder without the damaging effects of detonation. I guess I have just never seen such a thing stated in the way it is written in the manual. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Page 27. "Turning the system on immediately increases engine power by almost 100 HP due to the fact that a cooler engine can pull in more air. At the same time, turning on the MW-50 enables much higher supercharger boost levels." This doesn't seem quite right to me. Please do correct me if I'm wrong but "engine cooling" by this method would hardly be "immediate". If anything, I'd think the cooling effect on the air, making it more dense, would cause the immediate power increase. I'm always willing to learn something new, though. The cooling is a secondary effect to water methanol systems, it is almost immediate. After the methanol evaporates in the intake, reducing intake air temps and increasing the density. The leftover water in the MW-50 (it's 50% water, 50% methanol) is injected into the cylinders, which reduces temperatures in the cylinders and cylinder walls. This reduces the chance of pre detonation. Thus allowing for the engine to be operated at a higher pressure. Thus we have a cooler engine that is pulling in more air, operating at a higher A.T.A. So the sentence is correct. The engine outputs more HP at the same ATA when the MW50 is injected. Subsequently the engine can also be operated at higher ATA too, do to the reduction in risk of pre detonation. The danger from a water Methanol systems is corrosion leading to component failure and raising cylinder pressures above operating limits. Both of which can result in catastrophic failure. Edited June 13, 2014 by Curly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I keep on wondering wheter or not that Kopf und schwanz lastig mention on page 74 actually means nose heavy (in the case of kopf) and tail heavy (in the case of schwanz) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draken152 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I am missing in manual some info about the EZ42 Gunsight Adjustment Unit on right console . According to EZ42 manual(page 13) is used to adjust gunsight ballistic for proper combat altitude(values are in table on adjustment unit). Also is missing info (and maybe also programing) you need to switch on gunsight at least 1,5min before combat to ensure right function of both gyroscopes (they need time to be in proper position according to EZ 42 manual page 13). Also is missing EZ42 self-destruction button/detonator (EZ 42 manual page 11), I don't know if there is evidence of its position in FW 190 cockpit. See picture position 55, sorry if translation is not OK I am not native speaker neither German or English…. Still no answer of source for handle on left console pos.1 (MW-50 to Fuel Handle of water-methanol tank) and switch pos.9 (Radio self-destruction button)??? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Building FW190D pit ,,To Dora with love" http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=132743 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flagrum Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I keep on wondering wheter or not that Kopf und schwanz lastig mention on page 74 actually means nose heavy (in the case of kopf) and tail heavy (in the case of schwanz) Yes, it does. The "(Up)" and "(Down)" only indicates the switch position. But you are right, the actual translation is missing ... that didn't even occur to me when I read it ... as it was clear to me right away (as german, lol ;o). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) The cooling is a secondary effect to water methanol systems, it is almost immediate. After the methanol evaporates in the intake, reducing intake air temps and increasing the density. The leftover water in the MW-50 (it's 50% water, 50% methanol) is injected into the cylinders, which reduces temperatures in the cylinders and cylinder walls. This reduces the chance of pre detonation. Thus allowing for the engine to be operated at a higher pressure. Thus we have a cooler engine that is pulling in more air, operating at a higher A.T.A. So the sentence is correct. The engine outputs more HP at the same ATA when the MW50 is injected. Subsequently the engine can also be operated at higher ATA too, do to the reduction in risk of pre detonation. The danger from a water Methanol systems is corrosion leading to component failure and raising cylinder pressures above operating limits. Both of which can result in catastrophic failure. So by "injected" you mean the water-methanol is sprayed into the S/C and when the unevaporated water reaches the combustion chamber it has a cooling effect (on the cylinders) which is immediately noticeable? More immediate than the extra energy provided by the cooled dense air that entered the S/C? I had imagined the actual engine cooling would have been a more subtle secondary result. Do you have a reference where I can read more about this? I'd like to understand it better. Edited June 13, 2014 by Merlin-27 Clarification [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Lancester <----- LANCASTER on the target wingspan reference board ? AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 The methanol in the MW50 is there to stop the water from freezing. I would like to know how the water is not converted to steam. All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi of boost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox One Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 In image 1 below, on the left is the schematic for late-series Fw 190 A-8/A-9 and on the right is the schematic for D-9. What’s written in red are my notes. The late-series A-8, in comparison with early-series were equipped with a simplified version of the electrical system. Such planes had an important change in the cockpit - the aft group of switches under cover was deleted. Fw 190 D-9 is similar. In planes without the aft group of switches under cover they managed to substantially reduce the number of switches by wiring some switches to power several consumers. In image 2 (that’s for A-8/A-9 version) you can see how on the new, simplified version of the electrical system switches V24, V350 and E16 now powered several consumers, transducers, etc. In image 1 compare the schematic on the left for late-series A-8 and A-9 with the schematic on the right for D-9. The differences are: - on D-9 Verstelluftschraube-Betätigung and Verstelluftschraube-Antrieb are missing. Those are for propeller control circuits and for propeller’s electro-hydraulic drive motor itself. On D-9 the propeller pitch control has no electrical parts, it is hydro-mechanical controlled by MBG. On Fw 190 A it is electrically-controlled, automatically or manually. On D-9 is only automatic, and there is no pitch indicator or direct, manual pitch control available. - the P80 Flügel außen is missing, as there are no outer-wing guns on D-9. Notice that diagrams in image 1 are actually for R11 subvariant. This is fitted with autopilot and electrically heated windshield. So to adapt the right diagram for D-9 to DCS version you must remove K1 Kurssteuerung (autopilot), Heizscheiben innen (centre windshield heating) and Heizscheiben außen (side windshield heating) and add EZ 42. Notice how the centre windshield heating is switched on by D1 Staurohr switch (Pitot heating). According to info from an A-8 technical manual, the switches for late-series A-8 and A-9 (without autopilot and heated windshield) would be placed in this order, from front to rear: P80 V350 E16 D1 F211 F136 V24 A4 A6 (the switches under cover) C1 E14 E13 E85 E96 (external lights and pumps switches, located close to the starting handle) A D-9 would have exactly the same switches, except for P80. Guns switches – on the lower side of the D-9 diagram, the “Scußwaffe” box with MG151 and MG131, the two switches connected with a line must be the big “master arm switch” on the SZKK that switches on the synchronized guns. On the right of this, the two switches inside a little box – I don’t know where exactly are they in the cockpit and why they represented them inside that box. Also the screenshots from the manual – the labels are written on the switch panel’s covers. This is correct for earlier Fw 190 A versions. On D-9 there is a little place to insert the labels, left of the cover, visible well in pictures. On the panel cover there was sometimes hand-written only switches ID, like F136, V24, A4, etc My DCS videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2014 I'll try and absorb this this weekend and report what I can. :) In image 1 below, on the left is the schematic for late-series Fw 190 A-8/A-9 and on the right is the schematic for D-9. What’s written in red are my notes. The late-series A-8, in comparison with early-series were equipped with a simplified version of the electrical system. Such planes had an important change in the cockpit - the aft group of switches under cover was deleted. Fw 190 D-9 is similar. In planes without the aft group of switches under cover they managed to substantially reduce the number of switches by wiring some switches to power several consumers. In image 2 (that’s for A-8/A-9 version) you can see how on the new, simplified version of the electrical system switches V24, V350 and E16 now powered several consumers, transducers, etc. In image 1 compare the schematic on the left for late-series A-8 and A-9 with the schematic on the right for D-9. The differences are: - on D-9 Verstelluftschraube-Betätigung and Verstelluftschraube-Antrieb are missing. Those are for propeller control circuits and for propeller’s electro-hydraulic drive motor itself. On D-9 the propeller pitch control has no electrical parts, it is hydro-mechanical controlled by MBG. On Fw 190 A it is electrically-controlled, automatically or manually. On D-9 is only automatic, and there is no pitch indicator or direct, manual pitch control available. - the P80 Flügel außen is missing, as there are no outer-wing guns on D-9. Notice that diagrams in image 1 are actually for R11 subvariant. This is fitted with autopilot and electrically heated windshield. So to adapt the right diagram for D-9 to DCS version you must remove K1 Kurssteuerung (autopilot), Heizscheiben innen (centre windshield heating) and Heizscheiben außen (side windshield heating) and add EZ 42. Notice how the centre windshield heating is switched on by D1 Staurohr switch (Pitot heating). According to info from an A-8 technical manual, the switches for late-series A-8 and A-9 (without autopilot and heated windshield) would be placed in this order, from front to rear: P80 V350 E16 D1 F211 F136 V24 A4 A6 (the switches under cover) C1 E14 E13 E85 E96 (external lights and pumps switches, located close to the starting handle) A D-9 would have exactly the same switches, except for P80. Guns switches – on the lower side of the D-9 diagram, the “Scußwaffe” box with MG151 and MG131, the two switches connected with a line must be the big “master arm switch” on the SZKK that switches on the synchronized guns. On the right of this, the two switches inside a little box – I don’t know where exactly are they in the cockpit and why they represented them inside that box. Also the screenshots from the manual – the labels are written on the switch panel’s covers. This is correct for earlier Fw 190 A versions. On D-9 there is a little place to insert the labels, left of the cover, visible well in pictures. On the panel cover there was sometimes hand-written only switches ID, like F136, V24, A4, etc Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Lancester <----- LANCASTER on the target wingspan reference board ? that wasn't the only surprise on there; although there were Hawker products in service, the Hurricane wasn't really in service on the western front any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2014 that wasn't the only surprise on there; although there were Hawker products in service, the Hurricane wasn't really in service on the western front any more. I would like to see a reference photo this was based off of... anyone seen this in a 190 cockpit photo? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) So by "injected" you mean the water-methanol is sprayed into the S/C and when the unevaporated water reaches the combustion chamber it has a cooling effect (on the cylinders) which is immediately noticeable?. Yes, you're essentially misting the cylinders with engine coolant. More immediate than the extra energy provided by the cooled dense air that entered the S/C? I had imagined the actual engine cooling would have been a more subtle secondary result. Do you have a reference where I can read more about this? I'd like to understand it better. Are you asking whether a change in fuel air density/mass air flow or thermal efficiency has a greater effect on power output? You also have to take into account you're essentially spraying alcohol into the cylinders which is going to up power output. Then the steam in the cylinders, created by the combustion fuel in the MW50 environment, also raises the pressure in the cylinder and creates increased power. What do you mean by "more immediate"? Basic video on water methanol systems Research paper on effects of water injection and fuel mass ratio. http://omicsonline.org/scientific-reports/JAME-SR-591.pdf The methanol in the MW50 is there to stop the water from freezing. The methanol has multiple effects, besides acting as an anti freeze. A. It's actually a better coolant than water alone. Due to it's lower freezing and higher boiling point. B. It acts as a fuel additive and raises the octane of the fuel. Methanol is alcohol. . I would like to know how the water is not converted to steam. All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi of boost You partially answered your question with your first statement. A. The water is mixed with methanol so that the boiling point is higher. Combine with ambient temperatures at 10,000 ft, + were temps are likely be between 12 and -30, and we have a reduced likelihood of boiling. B. The 50 MW cools intake temps quickly and further reduces temps to below the boiling point. C. Water will conduct heat as long as there is a temperature difference between it and another surface. So as long as the cylinder is hotter than water, the cylinder will transfer energy to the water, whether the water is in a liquid or aerosol state. Edited June 13, 2014 by Curly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2014 Fox, did you miss uploading some pictures? You seem to be referencing something I am not seeing, I only see 2 in your post. In image 1 below, on the left is the schematic for late-series Fw 190 A-8/A-9 and on the right is the schematic for D-9. What’s written in red are my notes. The late-series A-8, in comparison with early-series were equipped with a simplified version of the electrical system. Such planes had an important change in the cockpit - the aft group of switches under cover was deleted. Fw 190 D-9 is similar. In planes without the aft group of switches under cover they managed to substantially reduce the number of switches by wiring some switches to power several consumers. In image 2 (that’s for A-8/A-9 version) you can see how on the new, simplified version of the electrical system switches V24, V350 and E16 now powered several consumers, transducers, etc. In image 1 compare the schematic on the left for late-series A-8 and A-9 with the schematic on the right for D-9. The differences are: - on D-9 Verstelluftschraube-Betätigung and Verstelluftschraube-Antrieb are missing. Those are for propeller control circuits and for propeller’s electro-hydraulic drive motor itself. On D-9 the propeller pitch control has no electrical parts, it is hydro-mechanical controlled by MBG. On Fw 190 A it is electrically-controlled, automatically or manually. On D-9 is only automatic, and there is no pitch indicator or direct, manual pitch control available. - the P80 Flügel außen is missing, as there are no outer-wing guns on D-9. Notice that diagrams in image 1 are actually for R11 subvariant. This is fitted with autopilot and electrically heated windshield. So to adapt the right diagram for D-9 to DCS version you must remove K1 Kurssteuerung (autopilot), Heizscheiben innen (centre windshield heating) and Heizscheiben außen (side windshield heating) and add EZ 42. Notice how the centre windshield heating is switched on by D1 Staurohr switch (Pitot heating). According to info from an A-8 technical manual, the switches for late-series A-8 and A-9 (without autopilot and heated windshield) would be placed in this order, from front to rear: P80 V350 E16 D1 F211 F136 V24 A4 A6 (the switches under cover) C1 E14 E13 E85 E96 (external lights and pumps switches, located close to the starting handle) A D-9 would have exactly the same switches, except for P80. Guns switches – on the lower side of the D-9 diagram, the “Scußwaffe” box with MG151 and MG131, the two switches connected with a line must be the big “master arm switch” on the SZKK that switches on the synchronized guns. On the right of this, the two switches inside a little box – I don’t know where exactly are they in the cockpit and why they represented them inside that box. Also the screenshots from the manual – the labels are written on the switch panel’s covers. This is correct for earlier Fw 190 A versions. On D-9 there is a little place to insert the labels, left of the cover, visible well in pictures. On the panel cover there was sometimes hand-written only switches ID, like F136, V24, A4, etc Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I would like to see a reference photo this was based off of... anyone seen this in a 190 cockpit photo? google surprised me. More info here: http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/instrumente/katalog/kopien/Kopie%20Revi%20EZ%2042.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2014 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2014 image google surprised me. More info here: http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/instrumente/katalog/kopien/Kopie%20Revi%20EZ%2042.htm Cool, and shows spelling that is in the sim... I say keep it that way :) Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 no argument from me on this, Sithspawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Water-methanol injection system in Jumo is not much different than systems in other engines, US, Brit, Russian; engines for planes, sport cars and whatnot. Basic concept - cooling the charge to avoid pre-ignition and increase its density is always the same - all these engines operate by the same laws of thermodynamics after all ;). So all comments above are more or less correct and say the same thing. I agree however, that the quoted sentence in the manual is poorly worded, because: a) it doesn't really explain how and why injecting water in reciprocating engine works; b) it's confusing by suggesting that cooling any piston engine in any way somehow allows it to "suck" more air and mysteriously produce more power. If a reader of the manual is not familiar with history and details of high-performance piston engines, his natural reaction will be - "WTF???". Nobody asks to include a long, detailed MIT-style thesis on the subject in the manual, but if only "more air" was replaced by "more dense air" and "cooler engine" was replaced by "cooler charge / mixture", with another two or three explaining sentences thrown in, that part of the text would be much more understandable. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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