Case I: How to respond to pitch up from flaps?

So I've watched the various videos and read Chuck's guide and I'm getting better at my Case I recoveries, but there's one thing that I'm still not sure about. When I hit 250 kts during the break turn, I drop my gear and put flaps to full. The issue is that as soon as I drop the flaps, the aircraft wants to pitch up hard and start gaining altitude. What's the best way to counter this?

If I try to just maintain on speed AoA with pitch trim after dropping flaps, I manage to gain a couple hundred feet on the downwind leg before the speed comes down enough to level out and start dropping, which puts me too high. If I counter the pitch up by reducing throttle I still end up gaining altitude because of the delay between the throttle change and the effect on the aircraft (and as a bonus I usually cut throttle too much and then sink like crazy right after). My most reliable way of dealing with it is just holding the stick down to keep the aircraft pitched level after dropping flaps and waiting for the speed to come down, at which point I can let go of the stick, adjust AoA with pitch trim, and manage altitude with throttle as the various guides suggest. Is this the correct way to deal with the flap-induced pitch up? Or do I just need to get better at managing the throttle?

Off the top of my head so someone else may want to chime in. My thoughts are that it's still early access. That being said, things aren't exactly the way they should be, so for now, you could put the gear down and hold off on the flaps until you get to a lower speed. I do believe the pitching has been brought up and is being addressed. Just throwing that out there.

Watch some of the good landing videos where the pilot is showing the control indicator in the bottom right, notice that the throttles never stop moving, sometimes from idle to full mil. I think 104 Maverick posted one recently.

If you watch a real f18 pilot landing, you will see the same thing, throttles never stop moving.

Personally, I wait till I'm a bit slower to drop flaps, because lower speeds reduce the rocket man response. Maybe go half for a bit then full. Not sure if it's the way the real plane behaves but for now it's what we have

Wait till your below 195kts to drop the flaps, you'll notice a huge difference ;)

;3547706']Wait till your below 195kts to drop the flaps' date=' you'll notice a huge difference ;)[/quote']

 

 

Man that really did the trick! Still got work on throttle management, but waiting to 195kts to drop flaps made it way easier to manage the descent. Thanks!

;3547706']Wait till your below 195kts to drop the flaps' date=' you'll notice a huge difference ;)[/quote']

 

Hmm, never noticed this "ballooning" issue. I hit gear and flaps in one swipe of my left hand as soon as a/s creeps down below 250... and I think I know why. Flipping the flaps switch down to half or full simply puts you in PA mode below certain a/s. (Hornet drivers or natops experts can chime in here) They are controlled by CAS. If you leave the flaps down and blast away with full afterburners the CAS will take care of that. The "amber" light will remind you:D

 

Just from the top of my head...

Anticipate what the aircraft will do, and react preemptively or immediately. I guess I’m just used to that after flying the Mi-8 so much, but I find that the same “stay ahead of the aircraft” philosophy applies equally well to the Hornet, especially with the laggy engine response.

Also at 250 kts you get absolute maximum lift.

I deploy gear flaps at 250 while still in the break turn and start to power back up.

For me The biggest thing is to "get in front of the jet"

Anticipation is the name of the game, so train a lot :)

After your cleanup and on the downwind ...no more stick for lift control, it is all throttle and be quick about it :)

You get behind the curve quickly, like 1 second too late on the power and you are now descending at -900 feet per minute.

So if you don't have this down cold, you might doing one thing out of order and the whole thing snowballs.

I just refused not to use stick for lift corrections and that left med very frustrated ;)

Had a weird real life momont playing the guitar....My brain told me "it feels wrong" but it sounded correct...So had to teach myself that the feeling was correct.

So practice practice practice and practice some more :)

I know a hornet is not a cessna but...

if you remember the cessna flight model of flight simulator, which i did not dislike, showed same reaction when you was to lower flap from "high" speed.

With that flight model however the plane was much more controllable, the thing was: flap down, plane pitch up, you then push on the command and the plane slow down.

The hornet at that point, don let you perceive the speed slowing down and will start to oscillate back and forth...

dunno, my 2 cents

Boy, do I remember that flight model - since Flight Sim v2 - drilling holes in the Chicago sky out of Meigs Field.

The real Hornet supposedly also pitches up slightly when applying flaps, according to two former RL Hornet pilots (IvanK & neofightr/A.E. W.). However, whether the magnitude of the flaps down pitch moment in DCS's F-18 is correct is debatable and, I think, is still work in progress.

Edit: And to answer the OP's question:

The real aircraft has a slight "balloon" as the flaps start to run. A small check forward on the stick is all that is required to hold the VV on the horizon very shortly thereafter as the deceleration starts increasing back pressure (and increasing pitch attitude) is required to hold the VV on the horizon. It is at this time that the "urge" to trim is felt by the pilot. About 3-4 seconds of back trim is all that is required.

I dont get it, at 250kts you are 90 degrees to go in the break turn.

Been having the same issue. At this time, I haven't tried putting the flaps down under 195. I need to try that, but at 240 knots, 3 degrees nose down, and I drop the gear and flaps full if I don't touch the stick the A/C will pitch up 15+ degrees and then drop like a rock. Afterwards, I reset and try the same thing with pushing the stick down to try and keep the A/C level and the airspeed drops sharply and I start to crab trying to keep control of the jet with throttle inputs.

Is this normal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT7JWsebSys&feature=youtu.be

Been having the same issue. At this time, I haven't tried putting the flaps down under 195. I need to try that, but at 240 knots, 3 degrees nose down, and I drop the gear and flaps full if I don't touch the stick the A/C will pitch up 15+ degrees and then drop like a rock. Afterwards, I reset and try the same thing with pushing the stick down to try and keep the A/C level and the airspeed drops sharply and I start to crab trying to keep control of the jet with throttle inputs.

 

Is this normal?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT7JWsebSys&feature=youtu.be

I'm having the exact same drama seen in your vid. It takes me forever to get on speed. I balloon all over the place. :joystick:

Yes that's normal. It's actually easier to avoid this problem if you deploy flaps in the break.

This is for carrier ops, but you can use the technique for airfields too.

Anticipate, in this case if a surge of lift is to be expected from extending flaps, you (I) back the throttle 'to lose the equal amount of lift that is added on the other side', time 'the cancelling effect to pass a certain time slot', after which one pushes the throttle back towards where one regulates the desired on-speed.

Actually I do this equally off the catapult, wheels off the deck, back the throttle, wait for the anticipated time to pass, and throttle up for on-speed departure pattern (at eh what was it 500 or 700 ft daylight), thus not having to fight pitch up.

I'm having the exact same drama seen in your vid. It takes me forever to get on speed. I balloon all over the place. :joystick:

I'm trying to figure out how Wags does it so smoothly. He deploys gear and full flaps at 225 knots with seemingly no stick movements to stabilize the jet as it seems to point the nose up a degree or two and then slowly drop. He also doesn't apply any throttle until he's on-speed AoA at around 135. All the while, for intents and purpose, his jet will fly straight and level. I need this in my life, lol.

Anticipate, in this case if a surge of lift is to be expected from extending flaps, you (I) back the throttle 'to lose the equal amount of lift that is added on the other side', time 'the cancelling effect to pass a certain time slot', after which one pushes the throttle back towards where one regulates the desired on-speed.

 

Actually I do this equally off the catapult, wheels off the deck, back the throttle, wait for the anticipated time to pass, and throttle up for on-speed departure pattern (at eh what was it 500 or 700 ft daylight), thus not having to fight pitch up.

I'm trying to do just this, but the sudden lift of the nose forces an immediate need to pull back on the throttle or else you'll quickly gain altitude as well as lose so much speed that you have to over correct not to drop back down like a rock. The result is like flying a rollercoaster.

I'm trying to do just this, but the sudden lift of the nose forces an immediate need to pull back on the throttle or else you'll quickly gain altitude as well as lose so much speed that you have to over correct not to drop back down like a rock. The result is like flying a rollercoaster.

Or, you exercise a bit and pull back throttle before you even touch the flaps switch and immediate after, you monitor your speed box, not for speed, but for the rate of change of the speed (like in, juggle your throttle so the rate of change is reasonably slow and steady so to where you're going with it to on-speed).

At the break about 350 knots I roll sharply (about 80D bank), speed brake on, throttles to idle, about 3D nose down. At 250 knots speed brake off, full flaps, drop the gear, reduce bank, start trimming for AOA, and try to catch falling airspeed. Start applying throttle at about 180 knots. I do not notice pitch up. Takes LOTS of practice, but I am old and slow.

I do a pre-landing check usually before even entering the upwind. Dump flares, set up ddis, safe master arm, check antiskid etc. I whack the flaps to full, figuring they will deploy when they are ready. I'm bleeding off speed and altitude in the break but still typically wind up high in the downwind, I don't get on the throttle until I need to. I think that helps the trim thing but really the hornet is so compliant, it sorts itself out pretty quick. That said I find myself really busy in the downwind trying to get into stable flight. Meaning, aoa nailed, pipper on the horizon. I have not had success trying to fix things in cross and on short final forget it, if I have to touch the stick much at all I screwed up somewhere. I work the throttle silly on final but not the stick. I think you're right, downwind is where the action is, and it ain't easy. My current strategy is to err on the side of being high rather than low, late on the throttle rather than early, hoping to settle down into the groove rather than trying to chase it around. I'm sure that's the wring way to do it but I hate having to make it up every time

I reached out to several of my buddies I served with in VMFA-112, 122, and 232. Curious to hear straight from the horse's mouth.

Question)

Happy new year gents! I'm wondering if you can help me with a hornet question?

I just want to know if the behavior of the hornet is right in this instance. I recorded a video of DCS F-18 and am running into an issue dropping the gear and full flaps. With about 3 degrees nose down, at 245 knots, angels 5.2 I drop the gear and flaps to full. Without any stick input, as you can see, the jet sharply noses up nearly 20 degrees and then falls again once I start hitting some nasty stall speeds. Is the jet supposed to do this in those parameters? I do the same scenario again and apply nose down pressure this time, but the jet is fighting me and starts to balloon.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT7JWsebSys&feature=youtu.be

Response 1)

Happy New Year.

Re: F/A-18 question. The video is close to what the feel is, however I think a few other things are off.

The gear tone along with the red light comes on below 7.5 angels and 175 Knots if I recall. I couldn’t see your speed, but looked like you were faster than that.

As far as the pitch up, the jet does pitch a little (2 degrees maybe) when you drop the gear, but will be countered by an equivalent nose down when the flaps drop. 245 a bit fast for smooth config. The jet will not drop the flaps all the way at 250... it gradually puts them down with decreasing airspeed. Best to config in the actual jet around 200-220 for least nose movement.

Sims are usually close. Your vid is decent. Little too much pitch, but that video didn’t show excessive bleed down to stall. You’d have to be < 130 knots to actually stall.

The jet is a violent ride sometimes, mostly due to turbulence. That sim looks pretty decent.

Response 2)

Happy new year! There are some oscillations when you transition to the landing configuration, though not as violent as what you showed me. Let me run this by one of my bros that are still flying in VFA-204 and let them see if it looks normal.

Response 3)

Simply put...no.

Any automation, i.e., autothrottle engaged? If auto throttle engaged with the gear down, the flight control computers will “seek” an on speed value as shown by the velocity vector and its relationship to the E bracket.

Response 4)

Great to hear from you brother. But why would you do drop gear at that altitude? So idle descent at 250. At 1500 ft drop gear. Decel. Then flaps. Straight in approach on speed. Hold gear to save fuel until you are committed to land. What simulator is this?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Case I: How to respond to pitch up from flaps?

It is interesting to see from your post that real pilots drop the gear first then flaps.

Anyway, I do notice excessive pitch up when breaking into downwind after dropping flaps and gear, throttle idle. I can make it smooth by applying counter force to the stick to prevent pitch up when it does that then as soon as nose starts to drop raise the throttle and ease up on the stick to keep VVI fixed in place. This is probably not realistic but it works in the game.

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Good info here, just a quick input on my methods. In the break at 350kias I usually drop power to idle, deploy the brake until 240kias, drop gear and flaps with usually about 20* of turn left for my downwind. I keep the power off until I approach 150ish kias but I keep a scan of my VSI, alt, and AoA indexer. Thats not to say that every pass is perfect, if I do have some lift that's raising my nose out of that 600 asl then nothing wrong at that point with using a little forward stick to keep the nose down until she stabilizes.