if you do not want to break your neck to check your six in VR

No thanks, I much prefer the 1:1 tracking and realism I get from VR as it is intended to be.

Exactly! (some of) You guys bitch about realism, but checking six IS hard on the neck IRL. Try it while pulling 7-8gs and wearing a JHMCs Helmet. :cry:

The thing I find hard in the virtual world is there is nothing to push against unless you've built yourself a real pit. That's what I find the hardest. IRL you have the cockpit rails to push against with one hand to push your upper torso away from the direction you want to look and to help twist your upper body rather than trying to do it all with your neck. When I'm doing BFM in DCS, I'm constantly reaching out with one of my hands towards the "virtual" canopy rail at my shoulder and then going F**k when its not there. It's REALLY hard to look straight behind you without having something solid to push on in order to twist your upper body from the waist.

Exactly! (some of) You guys bitch about realism, but checking six IS hard on the neck IRL. Try it while pulling 7-8gs and wearing a JHMCs Helmet. :cry:

 

The thing I find hard in the virtual world is there is nothing to push against unless you've built yourself a real pit. That's what I find the hardest. IRL you have the cockpit rails to push against with one hand to push your upper torso away from the direction you want to look and to help twist your upper body rather than trying to do it all with your neck. When I'm doing BFM in DCS, I'm constantly reaching out with one of my hands towards the "virtual" canopy rail at my shoulder and then going F**k when its not there. It's REALLY hard to look straight behind you without having something solid to push on in order to twist your upper body from the waist.

That's a good point, as you frequently see pilots grabbing various places to help reposition the body to help get the view towards the threat in the rear quadrant. I pointed out in my last post regarding twisting the hips and shoulders in order to help get the eyes towards the rear too - also, regarding peripheral vision, look at timestamp 2:11/2:14 or so here, with an F15 at around 4:30 to 5 oclock position - the pilot twists his shoulders/hips just a bit, just enough to get his head to around 3:30 - his peripheral vision does the rest, as IF he was wearing a VR headset with its limitation in this regard, he'd never have put eyes on the F15, where he clearly does here. The F16 pilot here's head is pointing almost closet to 3 than 4 oclock, yet he clearly sees the F15 at 5 oclock when he looks for it over his left shoulder here. THIS is what I've been railing about exactly - IF someday we get a VR headset that either has a much wider POV like the new Pimax8k (I had a Pimax last year and this still didn't help much regarding seeing 6 oclock), or better yet one that somehow uses eye tracking to simulate using peripheral vision, that'll make VR even more realistic than it is now, as IMO it's much, much more difficult to see to 5 oclock in VR than it was for this F16 pilot to do in real life. 6:39 is a good example in the video below as well - you can see him looking towards his 6 oclock, but look where his helmet/visor is pointing - if that was my Reverb/Index/RiftS, I wouldn't be seeing what he's seeing (the F15 is almost bang on his 6) using his peripheral vision, I'd be a couple clock positions away still at 4 oclock.

I've never worn a Jhmcs helmet, but I've worn 2 different Soviet/Russian helmets with a sighting system for the AA11 on 2 occasions, when I flew in the Mig29 and SU27, and I found I could twist around and see back to 5/7 oclock as I've posted before, even under some G. I don't know how possible it is at 7 to 8 G to look over your shoulder like this, as we were only pulling 4 or 5 max except when we did max performance turns, and my head was pointed straight ahead then, trying not to grey/black out.

Also, when puling 7+ g, you're almost always going to be looking across the circle at your threat, which means looking "up" more than twisting your neck sideways (4:30 in same video as an example). The F16 pilot here makes it look pretty easy, at least certainly not "hard".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgfFb8Vcsc

Nah, I want to turn my neck like in the jet.

To have realism you should have the same FoV and non bluried or distorded view than in reality. Unfortunately, with limited FoV (even with Pimax), distortion, sweetspot of VR HMD, that's not the case.

That is the reality. Your capability to actually see well is very very limited to your front. Your eye ball does not turn around, you can't look at your six and detect something easily. Your neck, eye and capability to get the fovea on the six'clock doesn't just happen.

If there is a such a contrast that you can spot something, by its color or brightness values or even movement (all requires contrast) then you can see visually that there is something, but you can't see what it is and what direction it is pointing or even moving etc.

What is the critical and defining information, it is not visuality but it is information that something is somewhere near you and you get some kind clues that what it is actually doing. Meaning that you see a enemy fighter fly-by and you notice that it is starting turning to specific direction. That is your clue that you will know on what direction to look at and what you are expecting in what time.

And higher skills you get by estimating ranges, speeds and times, better you are to know where the enemy will be in given time and where to look.

Want reality? Yeah, let's take the G-forces to count as well. People with TrackIR are whining how they can't look their six with VR, but they wouldn't in reality either when they are constantly pulling 6-9G and their vision is extremely low.

How easy does people think that it is to look your six while in high G turning fight?

In the end people can see how He is having trouble lifting head from the head rest at the 6-7G range, but does it very very well. Now think about trying to shift your body, turn your head to 7 or 5 clock position so you could actually look to your six?

No, many will not be able to do that. Why the dog fight is dangerous as you will easily lose the visual, your body is the limitation in tight turning fight and you are just required to even concentrate to your speed and altitude and many other things same time.

If something, TrackIR etc are nothing more than allowed cheating. And DCS should really get a far more realistic G forces implemented, that doesn't just affect to visuals, but as well to head turning and capabilities to click buttons etc.

And G-forces withstanding capabilities should be tied to the pilot career. So if your pilot dies, you start from the beginner level.

Far more challenge and reasons to survive.

No, people who are talking that one should be able to look their six'clock easily, have no wishes to want it to be realistic at all.

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That is the reality. Your capability to actually see well is very very limited to your front. Your eye ball does not turn around, you can't look at your six and detect something easily. Your neck, eye and capability to get the fovea on the six'clock doesn't just happen.

 

If there is a such a contrast that you can spot something, by its color or brightness values or even movement (all requires contrast) then you can see visually that there is something, but you can't see what it is and what direction it is pointing or even moving etc.

 

What is the critical and defining information, it is not visuality but it is information that something is somewhere near you and you get some kind clues that what it is actually doing. Meaning that you see a enemy fighter fly-by and you notice that it is starting turning to specific direction. That is your clue that you will know on what direction to look at and what you are expecting in what time.

 

And higher skills you get by estimating ranges, speeds and times, better you are to know where the enemy will be in given time and where to look.

 

Want reality? Yeah, let's take the G-forces to count as well. People with TrackIR are whining how they can't look their six with VR, but they wouldn't in reality either when they are constantly pulling 6-9G and their vision is extremely low.

 

How easy does people think that it is to look your six while in high G turning fight?

 

 

In the end people can see how He is having trouble lifting head from the head rest at the 6-7G range, but does it very very well. Now think about trying to shift your body, turn your head to 7 or 5 clock position so you could actually look to your six?

 

No, many will not be able to do that. Why the dog fight is dangerous as you will easily lose the visual, your body is the limitation in tight turning fight and you are just required to even concentrate to your speed and altitude and many other things same time.

 

If something, TrackIR etc are nothing more than allowed cheating. And DCS should really get a far more realistic G forces implemented, that doesn't just affect to visuals, but as well to head turning and capabilities to click buttons etc.

 

And G-forces withstanding capabilities should be tied to the pilot career. So if your pilot dies, you start from the beginner level.

Far more challenge and reasons to survive.

 

No, people who are talking that one should be able to look their six'clock easily, have no wishes to want it to be realistic at all.

The experience in a centrifuge is much worse than in an aircraft, ask anyone who has been in both. Look at the video I posted - the F16 is clearly pulling high G in turns (look at the vapor coming off the wings and fuselage) vs the F15 he is fighting, yet he is constantly putting his neck/body/head into a position where he can look above/rearward behind his 3 to 9 line. The pilot is constantly looking towards the threat that's behind him (or across the circle, either way his head/eye position is looking into the rear quarter) in this video, and there are hundreds of examples of similar videos of pilots doing the same.

At 4:30 to 5:30 the F16 pilot the video I posted is doing exactly what you're claiming is oh so difficult - while not easy, it isn't all that hard either. Especially look at 4:48 to 4:55, the vapor coming off the plane is huge (high G obviously), and the pilot is turning not just his head, but using his non stick arm (left) to help pull himself around to look right back at the F15 across the circle (way across, he's in the rear quarter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgfFb8Vcsc

Below pic taken from the same video, you can see the dot that is the F15 at 5 oclock (it's right above the cockpit camera on the left canopy rail), and this is the furthest point that the pilot's head turns to look/check the F15's position. It's plainly obvious how far his peripheral vision is looking to see the F15 here - again, IF the pilot was wearing a VR headset and looking at that F15 in DCS in the same position, he'd have to crank his head/body around another 2 clock positions in order to see the F15. It's at timestamp 6:15 in the video, you can see the F15 clearly in the vid.

For VR to be truly realistic, it needs to take into account peripheral vision, which it does NOT right now. The eye chart linked shows the degrees in red that peripheral vision can be used, and it certainly can't be in any of the VR headsets I've tried/own (all of them). That won't make using VR "easy", certainly not as easy as the TrackIr cheaters, but it'll make it more competitive with them, as you won't have to spin in your chair and point your VR unit/head almost directly at your rear to see your rear quarter, you'll be able to see into your rear quarter past your 3 to 9 line just as the F16 pilot does throughout his BFM fight with the F15 in the above video.

That won't make using VR "easy", certainly not as easy as the TrackIr cheaters,

TrackIR isn’t “cheating”. VR headsets just aren't developed enough yet to be competitive in this regard. There’s no way a PC game is ever going to simulate this kind of effort. Indeed most people don’t want their video games to be that physical. Do you want force feedback headsets that put 7Gs on you? :cry:

When I tried TrackIR many years ago it messed up my head as I was using my peripheral vision in reverse, i.e. to look to my right I would move my head to the right but look out of the corners of my eyes to the left to be able to see the screen.

I guess with more perseverance I might have trained my brain to treat this as normal but I just never really got it, as clever a solution as it is.

So for me VR was the solution I was looking for to give a natural means of looking around. The FOV doesn't really bother me.

The competitive side doesn't really interest me, my goal is immersion which VR delivers but real fighter pilots at their peak of fitness can look behind them so why not have it available for armchair pilots, be it trackir, snap views or whatever. It is little different to armchair racers doing full grand prix in F1 sims when they wouldn't physically last a couple of laps in the real thing.

When using VR with a swivel chair it really is realistic, it compensates for the black edges in the current headsets perfectly. If you have a stick and throttle with deskmounts to your right and left leg you can turn only 15, at best 20 degrees anyway. It complements each other nicely and comes close to the real thing in terms of work you have to put in, except the G forces of course. For realism it's this.

TrackIR isn’t “cheating”. VR headsets just aren't developed enough yet to be competitive in this regard. There’s no way a PC game is ever going to simulate this kind of effort. Indeed most people don’t want their video games to be that physical. Do you want force feedback headsets that put 7Gs on you? :cry:

I know that, you missed the other thread I think where this same discussion happened. I was being sarcastic, as everyone arguing my point was calling TrackIr users "cheaters". I just forgot to put it in quotes this time.

When using VR with a swivel chair it really is realistic, it compensates for the black edges in the current headsets perfectly. If you have a stick and throttle with deskmounts to your right and left leg you can turn only 15, at best 20 degrees anyway. It complements each other nicely and comes close to the real thing in terms of work you have to put in, except the G forces of course. For realism it's this.

Again, disagree - I use Monster mounts on the left/right just as you describe, with a swivel chair. When I put my head in the exact same position as the pilot in the second picture I posted, I can only see in between 3 and 4 oclock in the Reverb/RiftS/Index, NOT to 5 to 6 oclock as the F16 pilot is in my real life example. AGAIN, the reason is you can't use your peripheral vision in VR (yet), while in real life this is automatic. In order to see the F15 in the example pic I took from the video, while in VR doing the same thing, I need to be turned around in my swivel chair and nearly pointing my face RIGHT AT 5 oclock, which means pushing back from my desk and swiveling the chair, which in real life, isn't required, only a slight adjustment to my hips/shoulders gets my head to 4 oclock, and my peripheral vision takes care of the rest to 5-6 oclock.

I wouldn't call trackir cheating really.

But I think, specifically for checking 6 TrackIR give some advantage by an unrealistic feature while VR on the other hand bring some limitation due to it's technical limitations. Of course VR has it's own advantages in other areas, proper scale, better SA and so on.

Ideally we will have something in the middle e.g. a good big curved screen VR with the proper lenses and hardware to run it :).

I think it should be a fairly easy task for ED to give us an option in DCS to make it as easy in VR as it is with TrackIR to look behind you.

I wouldn't call trackir cheating really.

But I think, specifically for checking 6 TrackIR give some advantage by an unrealistic feature while VR on the other hand bring some limitation due to it's technical limitations. Of course VR has it's own advantages in other areas, proper scale, better SA and so on.

 

Ideally we will have something in the middle e.g. a good big curved screen VR with the proper lenses and hardware to run it :).

Well said, agreed 100%.

I think it should be a fairly easy task for ED to give us an option in DCS to make it as easy in VR as it is with TrackIR to look behind you.

Agreed as well - another flight sim (can't mention it due to understandable rules) I've played since it came out in 1999, a MMO WW2 game with 3 chess piece sides, has implemented just such a thing right from the start of their VR implementation, and it works well. You can use the hat/key pad view system of the game while using VR, allowing you to look behind yourself just as fast as TrackIR players can. Not realistic, and can be a bit of a deal breaker for those who dislike having their VR experience ruined by things like that, but it DOES work.

I dont find it harder to look back when I sit freely in my chair at home than when Im stapped in at work. In the chair at home my torso is free to move so I can get about the same view as when at work strapped in. Its a little bit less with VR but you can move the head anytime, in actual flying you should limit twisting when pushing high G.

I dont look for [realistic] in that context. Just having fun, and get the immersive part.

Despite this, even the modern simulators used in my work does not even come close to the VR*

For me, first generation VR( Oculus Rift etc) was good enough at that time.

I was looking for pimax 8KX mainly because of the FOV. Getting increased FOV is the next step, but as long as it isnt possible without other limitstioms the current generation of VR is just about as close as it gets. I got the Reverb as a middle step waiting for 8KX.

For me, DCS isnt an option on flat screens.

Its the same with racing games(which I like more than doing DCS), its either VR or IRL.

*) Both jetsimulators(most of them) and helo simulators we use have visual systems covering a bit more than 90 degrees left/right/up. You cannot look behind you. You have some other limitations as well.

Again, disagree - I use Monster mounts on the left/right just as you describe, with a swivel chair. ...

I too use deskmounts and have them next to my thigh, my right thigh touches the stick base even when looking just slightly and leaning towards my right wing. Widen the distance between your controls so you have a few more degrees to swivel. And maybe get fitter.

I hotkey that turns the camera 180° while pressed, should already help alot *wink ED*

:)

Two snapviews to the rear - one left and one right are all that's needed. This can then be mapped to the left and right actions on a hat switch, like the VR Zoom modes.

Come on ED, make it happen!

Taking the Russian pragmatic approach, a swivel chair...

Exactly what I do.

:thumbup:

At 4:30 to 5:30 the F16 pilot the video I posted is doing exactly what you're claiming is oh so difficult - while not easy, it isn't all that hard either.

He is not pulling high G (8-10G). Look at the turning rate instead vapor. He is pulling medium G (4-7G).

Especially look at 4:48 to 4:55, the vapor coming off the plane is huge (high G obviously), and the pilot is turning not just his head, but using his non stick arm (left) to help pull himself around to look right back at the F15 across the circle (way across, he's in the rear quarter).

Yes, but still low-medium G.

And you can clearly see that he has same limitation as VR has. I can look easily my 7'clock and 5'clock in fixed seat doing exactly that same thing. And I use Rift S that has narrowest FOV among top VR HMD.

And if I assist with my other hand to turn in chair, I can see very well nearly to the six a clock.

He ain't looking six a clock, but more at his 4'clock high. Very easy to do with Rift S without problems.

Again, target is at his 7'clock, and easy to look that much with Rift S as you turn your shoulders like he does and you turn your head to look at the 8'clock position just like he does.

Why does he turn his head so much? Because he can't use his peripheral vision to see the fighter, he needs to get at least his left eye fovea on the target. That is same limitation as in VR. You can't see sharply and spot things, estimate distances etc with your peripheral vision.

If you can at all twist your upper body in your chair by that 20 degree and get your side of turn shoulder to chair back seat, you can look at your six. In VR with Rift S I can look my 8'clock and 4'clock without twisting at all my body. If I move my shoulders like he does, I can look straight to my six a clock. But it is not easy middle of fight if you don't have chair that supports you (I have).

For VR to be truly realistic, it needs to take into account peripheral vision, which it does NOT right now. The eye chart linked shows the degrees in red that peripheral vision can be used, and it certainly can't be in any of the VR headsets I've tried/own (all of them). That won't make using VR "easy", certainly not as easy as the TrackIr cheaters, but it'll make it more competitive with them, as you won't have to spin in your chair and point your VR unit/head almost directly at your rear to see your rear quarter, you'll be able to see into your rear quarter past your 3 to 9 line just as the F16 pilot does throughout his BFM fight with the F15 in the above video.

I can see in to both rear quarters (up to 4'clock and 8'clock) without turning anything in my body. But in real life I can't reverse a car without either looking rear mirror or actually shifting my body so I have clear view through rear window, and that means to see directly my six'clock. And that same thing I need to do with Rift S, not less, not more.

Without turning my body, I can see in my peripheral vision to my six'clock. But that is only good that unless there is something very clear contrast behind the rear window, like a another car rear light, I can't make out distance or is there a person wearing a black jacket or a black car.

Why it is super handy to be able just place a right hand to rear of the side seat and twist body to actually see through rear window.

We can play this thing forever. Fighter pilots do not have special eyes. They do not have anything special in their helmets or cockpits etc. It is same thing as if you would sit in a convertible and driving in a parking slot around and parking car between cars etc. You need to move your body if you want to see your six'clock.

Here is the comparison for you to do.

In F-16 and Rift S, I can without twisting my body or shifting weight, turn my head and look to my right so that I see past the AIM-120 tail fins by good amount of degrees.

If I shift my weight like in your video the pilot does, and same way place my right shoulder to the chair, I can look to my six'clock. The chair is blocking my view actually, and I need to move my head backwards (to my left side) so I can see past the chair.

But doing this normal very slight body shift movement, I can see about 10 degree past the vertical tailfin. I can literally see clearly by turning from right side to about 6:30. And If I look upwards, again like in your video, I can see 7'clock.

I can't ask more than that in VR. As I am not going to look to my left by looking to my right.

The only place where I can't see in VR, is behind the fuselage.

If I shift my weight in chair (move my arse) like the pilot does, I can all day along sit very slightly sideways and be looking past my vertical tailfin.

I can't ask anything more than that.

BUT. I am not experience any G forces. I am nicely sitting in my flight room, in my own build flight chair, build from specs of F/A-18C and Su-27S (mixture, as I like both). So I can't even tilt my head so much further back or twist shoulders because the chair is much more high angle attitude than on F-16 seat is (and is easier to look at your six).

Yes the VR does have "blinders" like a horse would have. But they are nowhere near my fovea in limits. Meaning I can't see perfectly sharp outside the Rift S FOV.

Does that "blinders" affect to visuality? Yes. It is experience that you have narrower FOV than without.

Does that "blinders" affect to capability to look, see and track a fighter directly my six'clock (or even past my six'clock)? No. I don't need special swivel chair. I don't need to reset my view, I don't need to do anything special than just twist my shoulders so that I can look by six'clock.

Is it comfortable to do so? No, but if I use my another hand to support my twist by lifting arse slightly, just like in your video does the pilot do, it is not a problem. This as well means that I can far more easily look around my left side, than my right side, because I hold the stick with my right hand. But anyways I sometimes do grab stick with my left hand and use my right hand to shift body when I am needed to look to my six through my right side.

But maybe here is the main real difference. I train my upper body. I don't have back issues, I don't have neck issues, I don't have eye issues.

When I fly and I want to check my six.... There is two way for that.

1) Wingman that's job is to check the other wingman six is there for that.

2) I perform random turns to take a really good look that what is happening at the rear.

Because I can't keep flying straight and level and see around, the fuselage blocks the view.

The TrackIR is cheating that you can so easily just turn your camera around the cockpit and it automatically moves your virtual head position past the chair etc. That you can check your six even 3 times a second with just very slight head turning. Something that no real pilot would be doing.

And this is all with the Rift S, again, the narrowest FOV of the all when compared to Reverb, Index, Pimax, XTAL etc etc...

Do you know how easy it is to look my six'clock with Reverb and Index? As difficult... It is not easier. The only real difference is that I can see well past my Six'clock than with Rift S.

Do those offer the clear benefits? No....

Do those offer better immersion? Yes...

And how so? Because the "blinders" effect is smaller. So you are far more "in there" than with Rift S.

It really is nothing more than nitpicking that someone sees a "blinders" in their extreme peripheral vision when using something like the top VR HMD's offers, as none of those are denying flight simulators to be such that virtual pilot can check their six and track something even past their six'clock. Meaning their whole upper hemisphere is completely visible to be look at, only the aircraft to be piloted is placing the real restrictions.

Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock.

This is easily provable, I'll put up a video showing this, or you can do it yourself. I'll use all 3 different VR units I have while doing so. Take off the headset, put your hand inside where your face is so it doesn't deactivate, and point it at the same place the pilot's head is in my 2nd example. Look at your monitor screen, and see how far into your 6 area you can see on the monitor screen in DCS. Case closed. In r/l the pilot is seeing the F15 in the picture from the Youtube video I posted, easily. In DCS with the VR headset pointed in the same spot, this is impossible (again, due to you not being able to look beyond the limit of the VR headset using peripheral vision).

I look into my 6 all the time using the Reverb, I've never once said I can't or don't, my point is that you have to turn the VR headset/head/body far more than you do in reality (again, peripheral vision) in order to do so, which then gives TrackIR users a big advantage in speed/easiness of doing the same in PvP combat online.

Also, since when is 7 G "low to medium" G. That F16 is doing VERY hard pulls, all while looking into his rear quarter as I said. Hell the Hornet is limited to 7(.5).

Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock.

 

 

This is easily provable, I'll put up a video showing this, or you can do it yourself. I'll use all 3 different VR units I have while doing so. Take off the headset, put your hand inside where your face is so it doesn't deactivate, and point it at the same place the pilot's head is in my 2nd example. Look at your monitor screen, and see how far into your 6 area you can see on the monitor screen in DCS. Case closed. In r/l the pilot is seeing the F15 in the picture from the Youtube video I posted, easily. In DCS with the VR headset pointed in the same spot, this is impossible (again, due to you not being able to look beyond the limit of the VR headset using peripheral vision).

 

 

I look into my 6 all the time using the Reverb, I've never once said I can't or don't, my point is that you have to turn the VR headset/head/body far more than you do in reality (again, peripheral vision) in order to do so, which then gives TrackIR users a big advantage in speed/easiness of doing the same in PvP combat online.

 

 

Also, since when is 7 G "low to medium" G. That F16 is doing VERY hard pulls, all while looking into his rear quarter as I said. Hell the Hornet is limited to 7(.5).

I think you're spot on about everything. That's one of the reasons I liked the Pimax5K+. The added FoV. But for me, clarity of Reverb made me not miss the wider FoV. So it's a choice one can make.

When more VR optimization and better hardware is available in the next year or two, the wider FoV at much higher resolution would make this problem a moot point.

But using logical tricks like snapviews and over rotation would make us air sick quickly. The distortion of snapviews will be nauseating for most of us, I believe.

Maybe kicking open doors in:

You simply can not judge the g-force by looking at condensation.

Condensation occurs when the relative humidity of air reaches 100%.

The relative humidity increases when air is cooled down. At some point you reach 100% and condensation occurs creating ”cloud”.

For a given day, the humidity is higher at higher altitude, and a 4G loop might not cause condensation in the entry of the loop but it might do this in the top of the loop, being higher up in the atmosphere.

In a very dry atmosphere, like summer in Afghanistan(been there, done that) you can break the wings without seeing any condensation.

In a cold moisty autumn day there might be that much moist in the air that you create trails on a steady 1G approach.

= You can not judge IRL G-load from condensation from aerodynamic surfaces creating lift.

Maybe kicking open doors in:

You simply can not judge the g-force by looking at condensation.

 

Condensation occurs when the relative humidity of air reaches 100%.

The relative humidity increases when air is cooled down. At some point you reach 100% and condensation occurs creating ”cloud”.

 

For a given day, the humidity is higher at higher altitude, and a 4G loop might not cause condensation in the entry of the loop but it might do this in the top of the loop, being higher up in the atmosphere.

 

In a very dry atmosphere, like summer in Afghanistan(been there, done that) you can break the wings without seeing any condensation.

 

In a cold moisty autumn day there might be that much moist in the air that you create trails on a steady 1G approach.

 

= You can not judge IRL G-load from condensation from aerodynamic surfaces creating lift.

I don't disagree, you're right - but look at the video, and tell me if you think that F16 pilot is just doing "low to medium" pulls based on every other factor you can see, besides the vapor. Look at the shudder of the airframe, etc, and the rate at which the plane is turning relative to what you can see outside of the canopy for reference. He's BFM fighting an F15, those aren't "low to medium" pulls/turns. It's irrelevant to the argument anyway, I only brought it up because others claimed it was "too difficult" for pilots in real life to check their rear quarter/6 while pulling G, which is complete nonsense.

-Gunnars, when were you in Afghanistan? I was there a few times in the mid to late 2000s as well (worked for a couple PMCs then).

Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock..

Wrong.

The VR headset like Rift S already covers very well the FOV than your eye axis can move your fovea, it is just few degrees narrower for some people, and some people can see just wider.

You don't see anything outside the fovea to be able to detect somethings range, direction or what there really is. You don't see easily at all anything else than that has very strong contrast, like a dark aircraft against white clouds etc.

And as I told you from the video, the real F-16 pilot turns his body as much to look at his 7'clock, than I turn to look past my 6'clock. So I can see far further than required, or exactly the same as the real pilot did in that video.

He did shift his weight on the chair to move his ass so that he gets better view to rear, even when his wingman is just flying at his 7'clock position. He even turns his shoulders to past 8-2 clock angle to be able to look at his 7'clock position, while he has turned his head past 8'clock position.

Does he use a TrackIR? No!

Does he use a turning chair? No!

Does he just turn his head to 3'clock without body shifting? No!

Does he just try to look at his wingman (or targets) with corner of his eye? NO!

You can see in that video how he clearly knows where to expect the enemy to come, and starts to look at that direction, never really to his 6'clock position but elsewhere than his 6'clock position.

And all that you can already do with the real manner with Rift S. No limitations, no problems to do the real thing with the HMD that has narrowest horizontal FOV there is.

Because human eye fovea capabilities are not restricted by the VR.

That is your claimed "Impossible six'clock position". The

the BLUE LINE is 6'clock position. His wingman is flying far from that position.

the YELLOW LINE is where I can see with Rift S without turning my shoulders or shifting weight of the body.

the ORANGE LINE is where I can see clearly with Rift S when I shift my weight and shoulders like the pilot does in that video. I can see clearly way past the 6'clock position to opposite side.

This is so in the F-16, because its bubble canopy. It is not easy as the chair comes on the way in many ways. But comparing it to example a F/A-18C where the chair is effectively blocking the view to rear, it is far more easier in F-16 to look at rear. In Hornet I can look past my shoulder so that I can see both vertical fins. And that is by doing that exact moves the pilot does in that video.

I can see everything all around the airframe in F-16, except the bottom parts that gets blocked by the airframe. So the whole top and rear hemisphere are completely visible for me without using any assistance like reset, viewpoints or mechanical chair turning.

If I am wanted to see where enemy flies like his wingman does fly, I naturally twist my body to that direction just like that pilot does, and then I am able to look straight past my six'clock position.

And you are now forgetting one major thing, I am not letting enemy to get my six'clock position. As that means death. And there is no help, or point whatsoever for me to look at the enemy in my six'clock position if I need to maneuver hard to get him off.

If I want to track something, I can't use peripheral vision for that what so ever. You need to get at least one eye fovea on that target. And human eye does not have capabilities to exceed what the VR HMD are offering. Human eyes just simply does not posses the capaiblity turn in the eye socket around so you can look your three'clock position.

And in low light environments, you have no vision what so ever to see outside well. Your pupil will enlarge so much that you are literally focusing just about 20" front of you. Everything else past that distance is just blur. You don't see nothing clearly.

Your peripheral vision is nothing more than BLUR. You can argue as much you want around that, but you just don't see anything sharp, nothing small details outside your fovea.

You see well the motion if there is enough contrast, and you can see the specific type colors well.

But that is the problem in the dog fight. You need to be able to see the enemy aircraft attitude, not just its location that there is a light grey aircraft against deep blue sky. You need to be able to see the aircraft attitude, is it turning at you, is it flying away, is it nose up, nose right or what. You have split seconds time to see the enemy aircraft attitude so that you can maneuver right. And you can't see that detail at all through your peripheral vision. You need to get your fovea on that target.

And this is as well why the camouflage colors and shapes are very effective in the fighters. One might think that they are just stupid looking and very ineffective or obvious. But when the aircraft is outside your fovea (that about 1.5 degree area in your whole field of view) the colors blends nicely, you lose capability to detect the attitude, the shapes and even the movement like is the aircraft rolling or not.

That has been one reason why some fighters has the fake canopy painted under their cockpits. So when they are turning, you can't make out that in what angle the aircraft is. The seconds it takes you to guess the turning direction etc, is just making your maneuvering impossible with reliable information.

And that is why you see, just like in your video, that the pilots turn their whole body and heads to get their fovea to their rear. They do not just use their peripheral vision as it is almost same as not looking at all. And why they perform the wide steady turns so that they at least keep their threats well outside of their six position, so that they can look at them more easy position like 3'clock.

In a turning fight, you are not staring an enemy fighter from 50 meters distance. It typically can be 1-2 kilometers away from you. The target is tiny dot in the sky. And that thing blends very easily to the sky if you take a second or two away from your fovea vision. You lose it.

I don't disagree, you're right - but look at the video, and tell me if you think that F16 pilot is just doing "low to medium" pulls based on every other factor you can see, besides the vapor.

You look the vapors, I look the turn rate by using the visual references in the sky. They are nowhere near pulling 9 G's continually.

It's irrelevant to the argument anyway, I only brought it up because others claimed it was "too difficult" for pilots in real life to check their rear quarter/6 while pulling G, which is complete nonsense.

Your nonsense is that you claim that the G forces experienced in the centrifuge are not same as G forces experienced in the aircraft.

You can explain how you feel 9 G's for 30 seconds differently in centrifuge than 9 G in the F-16....

Does suddenly a 7kg mass weight differently in those different scenarios?

Does your vision get affected in centrifuge but not in the real cockpit?

There are various elements changing the factors slightly, like when you are trying outmaneuvering for your life, your heart is pumping at different rate, your blood gets filled with adrenaline, but same time your mind goes to very simple mode where you don't think, you must just react and not think. If you think, you die.

In DCS virtual pilots are doing these unrealistic scenarios where they are constantly turning at maximum G while looking at their six etc. And that is nonsense. That is exactly the problem that TrackIR users are easily doing, that they don't even need to turn their heads much to look at their six as they can just slightly turn side and they see to rear.

You can believe as much you want that you would be able to hold about 30 kg weight pulling backwards from your head while you are shifting your body around and looking at your six for minute or two, while you are pulling high G's.... And that just is your

The typical pilot helmet weights 2.45kg. And typical human head weights 4.5-5 kg.

Under 9 G force your head weights minimum about 40kg. All that just on your neck. Add there the helmet weight that is 22 kg and you get over 60 kg weight that you need to keep up.

Lets say you turn with 4 G, your head weight is now 18 kg and your helmet is 9.8kg so "only" about 27 kg.

How long you think you would be there pulling the G's in real aircraft, and your claim that centrifuge G's are different, then in there?

Now what happens when you are pulling G's, to your peripheral vision? Does it become clearer, higher definition? Do you get boost to your color reception or so? Does the increased G forces turn your vision just simply better and your muscles better?

If you think it is easy, and you so easily start to twist your body out of the chair and look at your six with perfect vision and clarity, then that is something.

If you can't check your six in VR, it is your own personal problem. I can, and many others can perfectly fine check their six without using anything than what the real pilot seat offers for the pilots.

The problem that you have, is that you think that your peripheral vision is perfect. But you forget that you are looking just 2 meters distance in the VR; not to infinity.

And TrackIR users do not need to move their eyes at all as they can just keep staring forward their computer screens, never reaching limits in their eyes movement.

In reality you need to turn as much as with VR to really look at your six and to really be able to see there. Your eye has limitations, that VR is not limiting.