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Old 02-09-2019, 02:15 PM   #21
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hoh hoh...you mean you consider AMD as a GPU option again ?

I am eager to know your point of view
As much as it pains me, but Nvidia prices have remained stupid for too long. I will probably regret it since I still think that AMD can't write a decent driver to save their lives.
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BitMaster View Post
Imo this card cries for a water loop, at least in my dreams.
Yes, water loop or at least larger radiator (like Raijintek Morpheus II) would make a huge difference imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Headwarp View Post
BFV is getting DLSS "soon" according to the latest nvidia driver news. Which will allow for better performance with and without raytracing currently using an RTX card. LIkely to be limited to 1440p and 4K. But still.. it gives a considerable edge to the RTX cards in the title. 2070 will potentially outperform a 1080Ti with the aid of DLSS.

I was also using dx12 in BFV last night, and it seems they've fixed some issues with it.

I had to adjust my resolution to 5160x2160 to experience DLSS in FFXIV on my 21:9 but.. it looked pretty good and was actually playable around 55fps and often above 60fps at that resolution.. which says good things to me about DLSS. Hopefully they find a way to make this work across a broader range of resolutions to utilize it in VR titles. FFXIV was basically nvidia's first wide scale test of DLSS. I anticipate 1440p support with BFV.

Frankly raytracing is hard to notice in the game as they've toned it down to increase performance, and you're generally too busy to stand around looking at reflections. but with dlss I'll probably be able to get away with it even @ 3440x1440. As it stands I have to lower my resolution to about 75% to keep my 100fps minimum with DXR enabled.

DLSS is by far the feature I've been most excited for with the RTX series, as well as what we may see over the next period of years with the NGX sdk. Still think ED should be keeping an eye on the tech given the performance hit from MSAA. NGX being the SDK that deals with tensor core operations, this is going to be where this new technology shines. DLSS is just feature #1. I mean the value of even the 2060 goes up in titles that will support this feature, which is already competing with a 1080 @$350USD

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce...s-at-ces-2019/

I may have to purchase a copy of 3Dmark to see if I run into any resolution restrictions with DLSS. 3dmark is like $5 right now >.< Could give me info I don't have yet regarding DLSS. If I do I'll post my findings.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce...yal-benchmark/
I know that BF V is going to get DLSS, though for us playing DCS it matters not. What was interesting in the quoted material, was that low overhead APIs benefit AMD more while Nvidia GPUs can cause stutter due to driver optimization, at least in that specific instance. Overall I think Vulkan is going to benefit all DCS users, whereas DLSS would only benefit a tiny part of community who opted to buy into RTX cards.

Also, DLSS is not a wonder tech, nor is it limited to Nvidia. Dont forget that Vega GPUs are more designed for compute and deep learning tasks than pure gaming so this kind of tech can profit AMD GPU's as well and it most likely will since AMD already announced they are working on their version of it using Microsofts DirectML. DirectML libraries will be a part of Windows Spring update and results you can already estimate based on Luxmark in which RVII offers around 1.5 better performance than RTX 2800 (if Im not mistaken). I honestly think that something like DirectML available to all Windows users makes more sense in implementing than Nvidia DLSS which is only limited to RTX cards and Nvidia software. But DirectML requires Dx12 which in case of Vulkan implementation in DCS is a no go.
I guess Khronos Group will have to come up with something themselves.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:05 PM   #23
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It's good that we can debate like this again, HOW LONG have we been waiting for this, how long guys ?

Lisa, you simply rock
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiromachi View Post
Yes, water loop or at least larger radiator (like Raijintek Morpheus II) would make a huge difference imo.



I know that BF V is going to get DLSS, though for us playing DCS it matters not. What was interesting in the quoted material, was that low overhead APIs benefit AMD more while Nvidia GPUs can cause stutter due to driver optimization, at least in that specific instance. Overall I think Vulkan is going to benefit all DCS users, whereas DLSS would only benefit a tiny part of community who opted to buy into RTX cards.

Also, DLSS is not a wonder tech, nor is it limited to Nvidia. Dont forget that Vega GPUs are more designed for compute and deep learning tasks than pure gaming so this kind of tech can profit AMD GPU's as well and it most likely will since AMD already announced they are working on their version of it using Microsofts DirectML. DirectML libraries will be a part of Windows Spring update and results you can already estimate based on Luxmark in which RVII offers around 1.5 better performance than RTX 2800 (if Im not mistaken). I honestly think that something like DirectML available to all Windows users makes more sense in implementing than Nvidia DLSS which is only limited to RTX cards and Nvidia software. But DirectML requires Dx12 which in case of Vulkan implementation in DCS is a no go.
I guess Khronos Group will have to come up with something themselves.
Lol I would like it if it did matter in DCS. I mean I get ED's stance on proprietary tech and all but this is one that offers a significant performance increase at least to RTX users.. and DLSS is not limited to directx afaict based on games touted to implement it, also doesn't stop anyone from still using their non RTX cards, although I have a feeling it would lead to quite a few people buying 20 series cards for the sim.

I doubt tensor cores will be going away on nvidia gpu's in the future as well. There could well be a chance that as tensors gain capabilities for parts of the rendering pipeline that allows for being slightly less reliant on streaming processors, and shove more RT and Tensor cores on a die. But that's just speculation on my part.

That's not a knock on AMD.. competition is good in a free market, and it's good they're looking into DirectML.


AI enhanced graphics and gaming sounds pretty awesome to me, and much like the future. Deep Learning AI can drive a car. I wonder how well it could fly a virtual aircraft. Not to mention AI driven cheat protection and other goodies purported for the NGX SDK.

Anyway.. the Radeon VII is definitely impressive... and hopefully a sign that AMD plans to keep nvidia on it's toes.
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:56 AM   #25
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Oh, I didnt mean to be pushy or something mate. Just from my point of view, Nvidia DLSS is sort of limited. Especially in regard to resolution, as you've found yourslef, its limited only to 4k res. DirectML alternative according to AMD is not so it would benefit users across all resolutions and who knows, maybe even in VR. And it would benefit RTX cards just as much as any other GPUs.

I agree that Tensor cores are not going anywhere. Neither are RT cores. Both are mandatory for Ray Tracing.
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:34 PM   #26
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Oh, I didnt mean to be pushy or something mate. Just from my point of view, Nvidia DLSS is sort of limited. Especially in regard to resolution, as you've found yourslef, its limited only to 4k res. DirectML alternative according to AMD is not so it would benefit users across all resolutions and who knows, maybe even in VR. And it would benefit RTX cards just as much as any other GPUs.

I agree that Tensor cores are not going anywhere. Neither are RT cores. Both are mandatory for Ray Tracing.
It was only limited to 4k res in FFXIV, and I'm guesing that mostly is to due with the amount of time required to train the neural network, and also wanting to get a public test base asap. Perhaps also a state of not knowing the future of the game as the head guy for FFXIV resigned. 3dMark Port royal allows for testing RT and DLSS at 1920x1080, 2560x1440, and 4k. Albeit, framerates were low as crap @4k due to the amount of ray tracing. like 15-17fps without dlss to 30-35fps with dlss.


With the way it worked in FFXIV, allowing for enabling it at 5160x2160, I'm quite certain as long as it's implemented in a game @2560x1440 it will work for me at 3440x1440.

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2560x1440 DLSS results, bare in mind lots of raytracing going on in the benchmark with some lovely shadows and reflections. I don't think most game devs will take it this far nor do you have to have RT enabled to use DLSS outside of this benchmark, but almost 50% improvement at 2560x1440.

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Frankly, the 2060 being on par with the GTX 1080, 2070 and up seems like too much for anything below 2560x1440, at least in dx11 or earlier.

Nvidia has mentioned VR in regards to DLSS in interviews but just briefly so I'm inclined to think they'll eventually get to a point where they can offer it over a broader range of resolutions to support the various headsets and supersampling levels. We'll just have to wait and see. And there's the plus of NGX being able to work with all versions of directx and likely vulkan.

But as it stands, it's still in the early stages. It's going to be the game developers that make or break the tech.

I didn't feel a hint of pushiness btw so no foul there. I've just been keeping my eye on DLSS since before I bought my card, and it's grown into excitement overall for the future of the NGX SDK. I could live without raytracing, but I want to see where machine learning can take us in gaming.

*edit* just an afterthought - I'm not saying a 20 series card should be in everyone's immediate future, I don't tell people what to buy as much as share personal experience regarding options. Throughout 2019 and a bit onward, performance measured by traditional methods should be adequate.. and as you say - AMD is working on their counter to AI enhanced graphics. We're just getting our first tastes throughout 2019.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:45 AM   #27
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Nvidia will rethink DLSS and XYZ when they take a 2nd look at their market value.

LoL, real business is not DLSS or RTX, its SELLING CARDS to the masses, and that, Nvidia forgot.

I am very confident my next GPU has AMD written on it, despite my Gsync screen.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:02 PM   #28
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Really curious how this baby will handle VR in DCS. A lot of 1080p tests have shown slight less performant results that the 2080. But i just read a test for 5K, where the R7 was better than the 2080 in most of cases.

VR, especially in MP uses all of my 8GB VRAM of my 1080. So the 16GB VRAM of the R7 seem to be a good option.

I think right now it's a bit too pricey. AMD should sell it for 600€. That would be an statement for Nvidia and a lot more people would be convinced to buy AMD again.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:04 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Nvidia will rethink DLSS and XYZ when they take a 2nd look at their market value.

LoL, real business is not DLSS or RTX, its SELLING CARDS to the masses, and that, Nvidia forgot.

I am very confident my next GPU has AMD written on it, despite my Gsync screen.
We'll see. BFV is getting DLSS tomorrow apparently, Anthem is touted to release soon and will be getting DLSS support as well, and according to nvidia, RT+DLSS is going to be very close to equal with performance of both features off. I can only imagine that means DLSS without RT is going to equate to a performance increase over all.. with a 2060 supposedly able to claim 90fps @2560x1440 without either feature as it stands. And leaves the thought of DLSS 2x, without any ray-tracing. afaict doesn't involve any upscaling. I'm very curious about how that compares to current AA methods in both quality and performance.

If the image quality is acceptable and provides a significant performance increase.. I'd have to say developers not moving to support such a thing is kind of stubborn. I'm looking at you, MSAA performance hit with deferred rendering. *cough cough* This is undoubtedly going to be a thing with future generations of nvidia GPU's. Hopefully all goes well with the BFV patch tomorrow and I can share my experiences with that.

And that's not an argument against you buying an AMD card in the future Bitmaster. Innovation is risky. I'm content taking part in the first steps of a new tech being utilized in the gaming world, and the 2080Ti still has the cuda count for games that won't utilize tensor/RT cores. It's been a long time since hardware really tried to change things up to this level.

It's good that AMD is catching up after a slump of nvidia dominating the gaming gpu market, and this time with a reasonable pricetag. Despite the shifty launch from nvidia and the high pricetags while they felt they could get away with it.. they are laying groundwork that could change gaming as we know it at the level of development, and even streamline things like lighting and shadows from a database of real world physics. And their low range offerings right now aren't exactly horrible. If I were on a tight budget a 2060 doesn't look too bad at all. And I'm all for AMD bringing more bang for the buck, causing nvidia to rethink pricing and counter. We'll see.

Personally.. I'm just thinking PC gaming is going to get pretty yummy throughout the next decade. At which point I might just be too old for it lol.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:23 PM   #30
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I didnt previously put that much attention into the DLSS details but it appears that there are serious quality drawbacks in that tech, which basically result in lower picture quality in exchange of better performance:



Plus its introducing shimmering and jagged lines. All in all, I can tune graphics myself.
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