Re-engage or run?

For whatever reason I go for the deck and try to exit the battle zone. I find a mig 29 (or something with that radar) chasing me and intermittently locking me up. Trying to extend and then turn around to re-engage gets me shot out of the sky every time. Do I keep running or re-engage? How? Split-s? If so imagine I want to regain as much altitude as I can in the process?

I would extend for a while and then make sure i make my 180 behind a mountain or something that can shield my manoeuver.

if its a MiG29 he will be gone soon enough, cause he hasnt the playtime...

if its a su27 I would only turn around if I have fox3s.. I would switch to AACQ and lock and shoot the first thing thing that locks as a bandit and then immediately bug out.

If I cannot lock, I would maddog repeatedly in the general direction of the nails/spike and BUG OUT

Usually extend to drag bandit towards friendlies and "ABC" (always be climbing). Usually a bad idea to re-engage if you are low and slow. I generally wouldn't re-engage on a public server unless I have extended out, reset to 26K feet and gotten some SA back. If you re-engage when you are "tumbleweed" if probably won't end well. Watch for R73 / R27 ET as you turn back hot as obviously you won't get an audible warning. The point made above about setting your radar and possibly HMD up for where you expect the bandit to be when you turn hot is sound. Remember LHAQ (long press on sensor fwd) is good for up to 10 miles 80 degrees off your nose. I have achieved lock at 11nm in this mode however.

First, do your best to know where he is - specifically, how far away is he?

Your sources of information are:

1) Your last contact with the bandit

2) Visual (always try to get a tally)

3) AWACS if available

4) Other flights (players)

Assuming you're all alone and cannot drag this bandit to friendlies (if that bandit less than 15-20nm away, let's be clear about this: You're not outrunning anything but an A-10 in that hornet), your most likely decision here is that you will have to fight. If he's further away you can probably run for a while before he catches up to you (every 60kts of speed he has on you eat 1nm/min - what's his max launch range against you, ie. how long can you run for before he catches up enough to take a shot? does he need to catch up 15nm or 5 nm?)

Your fight is called notch-to-merge, not 'eat-his-missile-in-the-face'. :)

For whatever reason I go for the deck and try to exit the battle zone. I find a mig 29 (or something with that radar) chasing me and intermittently locking me up. Trying to extend and then turn around to re-engage gets me shot out of the sky every time. Do I keep running or re-engage? How? Split-s? If so imagine I want to regain as much altitude as I can in the process?

If he's less than 15 miles behind you and trying to kill you, re-engaging is going to be very difficult if he's fully loaded with death sticks. It's possible you could turn back and fire an emergency mad dog amraam at him then immediately disengage, hoping he's target fixated (this works on the 104 pretty well), but you're going to need at least 10 miles separation distance for that, because as soon as your Vc drops (indicating you're turning), he's going to fire... i would, anyway. Your mileage may vary...

So part of the problem is that the hornet is too slow. While I generally agree with "ABC" as noted above, because all the other fighters are faster at altitude they will catch you. An ER/ET can kill you at longer ranges from your 6 the higher you get. Your best chance, if you don't have a friendly inside of 20nm on comms to run to, is to notch and attempt to spot them visually. with JHMCS you can boresight them at 70 degrees or aim-9x at 90 degs.

If you are going to run I recommend staying low where the hornets speed disadvantage is smaller, I tested and at sea level the difference between hornet top speed and a su-33 top speed is only about 30 kts.

All the Su-33 (or any pursuer) has to do is fly higher.

Sounds like the main advantage is, I'm getting closer to home and he's getting further away. Also I got my money on the f18 for canyon carving. Which so far has been the best way to pop up without getting shot, stay in the canyons.

I'll take on anything if I have altitude on em. Down low, I think I need to make like a tree and gtfo. Thanks for the comments

Usually extend to drag bandit towards friendlies and "ABC" (always be climbing). Usually a bad idea to re-engage if you are low and slow. I generally wouldn't re-engage on a public server unless I have extended out, reset to 26K feet and gotten some SA back. If you re-engage when you are "tumbleweed" if probably won't end well. Watch for R73 / R27 ET as you turn back hot as obviously you won't get an audible warning. The point made above about setting your radar and possibly HMD up for where you expect the bandit to be when you turn hot is sound. Remember LHAQ (long press on sensor fwd) is good for up to 10 miles 80 degrees off your nose. I have achieved lock at 11nm in this mode however.

LAHQ is great and works well beyond 10nm. problem is it wont be usable in your hud.

that's why I would use AACQ 6bar, 80° and 40nm with a zero alt set at 5nm ahead

The tactic of firing, escaping, extending, re-engaging is based on the premise that you have at least one wingman, and that wingman can occupy your opponents attention while you perform your escape allowing you to re-engage from beyond your opponents effective threat range (during which time your wingman would likely be performing his escape maneuver and be needing you to cover him).

If you're in the fight 1v1 or 1v2 or 1vMany you can't follow this tactic reliably because once you turn defensive you give your opponent a huge tactical advantage and any attempt to re-engage will be incredibly risky unless you've managed to lose your opponent. Remember, as soon as you turned away he likely has a positional, speed, aspect and SA advantage over you, that's tough to beat.

My best advice in 1v1 or 1vMany is to commit to the attack, once started stay committed until you win or die. If you make them turn defensive you have all those advantages I mentioned above, use them to quickly destroy your opponent and move onto the next bandit ASAP before that one gets you.

It's a risky tactic for sure but it gives you the chance to use your advantages when they arise.

Still the best option is to work with others you trust as a team, a flight of 2 is more effective together then 2 lone wolves.

Are the AI fighters aircraft in dcs designed to be conscious of their home fuel? That is conscious enough to know when to turn back from a chase. I have been chased in the Hornet on two occasions and I was caught up with even while I was in afterburner. Aren't some of the AI fighters endued with unrealistic power?

The tactic of firing, escaping, extending, re-engaging is based on the premise that you have at least one wingman...

 

My best advice in 1v1 or 1vMany is to commit to the attack, once started stay committed until you win or die. If you make them turn defensive you have all those advantages I mentioned above, use them to quickly destroy your opponent and move onto the next bandit ASAP before that one gets you.

 

It's a risky tactic for sure but it gives you the chance to use your advantages when they arise.

Makes sense.

1v1, seems like f15 drivers like this routine: crank, fire an AIM120, go for the deck, notch, re-engage. That *never* works for me in F18. What does usually work is to crank, fire as I'm cranking back to the other side, then pull back in for a second shot at close range. If opponent has committed to the attack, it's hard for him to get away. Key I think is to maintain altitude, I think once I give that away I'm done. Long as I have the advantage, the jet doesn't even technically have to be flying, which I find amazing. That sucker will do donuts in the air.

Sometimes I think ya gotta run, it might start off 1vs1 but those things pop up out of nowhere sometimes. I will say, I've been lucky hugging the ground, it's always when I pop up that I get... well, popped. And, when the tables are turned, I've noticed it's hard to put enough stank on the missile to guarantee a hit outside of 10m if the other guy is running hard. Takes a long burn. Once again, fuel management emerges as a key factor I guess.

And yeah it's starting to look like a waste of time to try to fly CAP solo in an F18

Makes sense.

 

1v1, seems like f15 drivers like this routine: crank, fire an AIM120, go for the deck, notch, re-engage. That *never* works for me in F18.

That's probably because the eagle radar isn't lacking the ability to move the narrow AZ scan around. It'll come to the hornet too, and right now you can make up for it with the helmet.

What does usually work is to crank, fire as I'm cranking back to the other side, then pull back in for a second shot at close range. If opponent has committed to the attack, it's hard for him to get away.

That's because a) the missiles let you get away with doing this right now and b) your opponent doesn't have things figured out.

And yeah it's starting to look like a waste of time to try to fly CAP solo in an F18

It's a waste of time in any fighter, and given these 'tactics', this is certainly not a CAP, which implies 'holding ground'. These are all just solo fighter sweeps if anything.

A combat air patrol is an aircraft patrol provided over an objective area, over the force protected, over the critical area of a combat zone, or over an air defense area, for the purpose of intercepting and destroying hostile aircraft before they reach their target.

Thanks for the advice guys. This forum is awesome.

The first rule of flying in combat is "you never, Never leave your wingman!"

If this rule does not apply to you because you don't have a wingman, then your first mistake came when you took off without a wingman and tried to go solo, finding yourself running scared from that 27/33/J11. Your wingman would cover you in those situations so that when you're egressing on the deck and that bandit is on your 6 chasing you your wingman comes from his 9 o'clock and splashes him.

Too many people fly alone and forget the basic rules of engagement, then find themselves in bad situations and wonder what happened. Everyone should change your call signs to "Maverick".

As stated by the other posters, if you do find yourself without a wingman and you're running cold from a bandit, the ONLY time you should turn around is when you have friendly SAM or A/A support in range or when you have a mountain, hill, or valley where the bandit can lose visual and or radar contact of you. Then you might be able to turn around and get a quick kill with either an AIM-120 in visual mode or an AIM-9X off boresight with the JHMCS. Forget trying to find them on radar and just go to ACM and look out the canopy!

Please review the info on this page (link below) for a better explanation, and remember "you never, Never leave your wingman!"

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-air-combat-better-with-a-wingman

you can beat red fighters without much trouble because their missiles are so smoky.

turn abeam, look in general direction of bandit

once he fires, snap off HOB 9X or two

turn out and run

receive kill ~70% of the time

laugh

generally though it's better never to be in an inferior position, like running from an enemy or being on the deck, or both. assuming you are even numbers with the enemy and have AMRAAMs you should really never get into the position where you have lost in BVR and are now forced to merge or retreat. retreat is especially dangerous as the -18's top speed is very trash and they will eventually catch you and bag you.

Agree with other posters, I have much better luck running low in general, but depends on circumstance.

AWACS bogey dope will give you range. If your locked up and range is 5+ most likely you can burn, mask where you can, and get out.

If its under 5 and you're getting launch tones there is not a lot you can do. The only advantage the 18 has is it ability to point its nose quickly, so you might be able to position for CM dispense, override FCS and get a hobs 9x shot off, but you will probably die.

Regarding effectiveness as CAP though - right now we have the most basic implementation of STT, and even then we can only display a single trackfile, no L&S or DT2. No auto IFF, no IFF at all really. The SA page, evidently coming very soon, will help but it won't add the offensive capability we are missing. Its the radar modes and ability to engage multiple tracks that's killing us. TWS will add the ability to display and simultaneously engage what? 10 track files? Both in A/A and A/G we are really seeing a fraction of the offensive capability.

Once fully implemented, whenever that is, there's really nothing else in DCS that will match it. The FC3 planes all have limited avionics implementations, the Mirage has the advantage of working, but limited payload and older avionics, and while its going be a lot of fun, the F-14 its arguable a full gen behind a our lot 18C.

that's a lot of beta releases away though, and very complex systems. Might be a while

Don't go for the deck. Climb. Altitude is your friend and missiles with limited rocket motors run out of energy climbing- you give them energy and you're slower and eat up fuel down low. You can run and remain relatively fuel efficient at our about angels 25. Don't max your jet out with 10 draggy SPAMRAAMS. Take some Sparrows and Sidewinders- learn to read what your radar is telling you about the bandits- intercept at a favorable launch position- don't chase bandits when they turn cold- get fast and high and 900 knots closure rate minimum then launch an AIM-7 and go to your gimbal limits minus 5-10 degrees. If they dodge your shot you've got your exit strategy already started. It sounds like you're flying alone- so don't plan on engaging more than 2.

The first rule of flying in combat is "you never, Never leave your wingman!"

Don't go for the deck. Climb. Altitude is your friend and missiles with limited rocket motors run out of energy climbing- you give them energy and you're slower and eat up fuel down low. You can run and remain relatively fuel efficient at our about angels 25. Don't max your jet out with 10 draggy SPAMRAAMS. Take some Sparrows and Sidewinders- learn to read what your radar is telling you about the bandits- intercept at a favorable launch position- don't chase bandits when they turn cold- get fast and high and 900 knots closure rate minimum then launch an AIM-7 and go to your gimbal limits minus 5-10 degrees. If they dodge your shot you've got your exit strategy already started. It sounds like you're flying alone- so don't plan on engaging more than 2.

Dude discussion was relating to a little later in the flight, when you're running and you got a lolipop with a 29 in the middle flashing in the bottom of your hud and that high alternating tone that says you're about to die. That 25k was gone long time ago

otherwise i agree in principal, except very very rarely do I ever find a circumstance where'd I'd rather have a 7 than a 120, I carry them to not be a dick on multi where suplies are limited. With current state of IFF its nice to be able to break lock, and if you hauling ass head on to help someone running, where there's a chance it'll go active and hit the runner. Maybe a bomber intercept mission or something where I want the extra punch but I can't remember the last time I shot a bear. The main reason is because IFF is so bugged. I'm glad they've improved, especially for the tomcat, but in hornets current state with vanilla STT, no L&S or DT2, much less tws, at least you can rescan and designate another brick once it goes pitbull