Basic Fundamentals: Ka-50 Startup

In this course for the Ka-50, we'll go over the start up procedures as well as the HUD in its' default configuration.

Some things I'd like to point out:

1. At 1:14, the SA-TFL switch is non-functional in-game. You can flip it up so that it matches all the other radio switches, but it's not strictly necessary.

2. At 2:20, the proper procedure is to only engage the fuel pumps to either engine when you're about to start them. However, it doesn't have any adverse effects in-game if you flip them up beforehand.

3. At 3:18, though it has no adverse effects in-game, the proper procedure is to arm the ejection seat as the last step before taxiing.

4. At 3:52, you need to leave the throttles on idle until both engines are started up and have stabilized. Pushing them up to auto before the engines are started is a safety hazard, as in auto mode the rotors generate enough lift to cause the helicopter to either move or become airborne.

5. At 4:04, the switch is the engine selector switch, of which turbo gear is one of the possible positions.

6. At 4:37, the IFF switch is non-functional, and the NAV switch provides power to the PVI-800 only until the engines have started up and both generators are running, at which time power is delivered by the generators. It's not necessary to flip these switches up, though it doesn't hurt to do so.

7. At 4:43, the left switch is for the INU correction mode. In the forward position, the INU correction is done through the Shkval, and in the rear position, it's done through flying over a known reference point. This switch is only used in conjunction with the INU alignment buttons on the PVI-800. The right switch is for data link power. Neither need to be in the forward position for the PVI-800 to work properly, though the datalink switch should be switched forward for it to work.

8. At 5:00, you actually turned on the altitude hold channel while leaving all the other channels off. Due to a long-standing bug, the lights for the autopilot channels are inverted (dim is on, bright is off). In normal operation, the bank, pitch, and heading channels should always be on.

9. At 7:04, the throttles should only be put into the max position for emergency situations only, for example if one engine goes out and you absolutely need the extra lift. For normal operation, the throttles should only be used in the auto position.

10. At 8:30, the trim reset is a workaround for the majority of joysticks being spring-based and not intended to be used with helicopters. I wrote a very long post here that explains the 3 different trim modes and how they work:

11. At 9:50, the rotation of the helicopter is due to two things: at 5:50 the heading hold channel was not turned on, and because the two rotors generate slightly different amounts of torque. It is not due to centrifugal force.

12. At 12:32, the p indicates that the altitude source is from the radar altimeter. It goes away above 300m because the helicopter will switch to the barometric altimeter. This distinction is important because above 300m when the p goes away, the number will most likely jump to a completely different value, because the altimeter source is changing.

13. At 13:30, the bar and number on the lower right indicates your vertical velocity. The +01 shows that you are rising at 1 meter per second.

Some things I'd like to point out:

 

1. At 1:14, the SA-TFL switch is non-functional in-game. You can flip it up so that it matches all the other radio switches, but it's not strictly necessary.

 

2. At 2:20, the proper procedure is to only engage the fuel pumps to either engine when you're about to start them. However, it doesn't have any adverse effects in-game if you flip them up beforehand.

 

3. At 3:18, though it has no adverse effects in-game, the proper procedure is to arm the ejection seat as the last step before taxiing.

 

4. At 3:52, you need to leave the throttles on idle until both engines are started up and have stabilized. Pushing them up to auto before the engines are started is a safety hazard, as in auto mode the rotors generate enough lift to cause the helicopter to either move or become airborne.

 

5. At 4:04, the switch is the engine selector switch, of which turbo gear is one of the possible positions.

 

6. At 4:37, the IFF switch is non-functional, and the NAV switch provides power to the PVI-800 only until the engines have started up and both generators are running, at which time power is delivered by the generators. It's not necessary to flip these switches up, though it doesn't hurt to do so.

 

7. At 4:43, the left switch is for the INU correction mode. In the forward position, the INU correction is done through the Shkval, and in the rear position, it's done through flying over a known reference point. This switch is only used in conjunction with the INU alignment buttons on the PVI-800. The right switch is for data link power. Neither need to be in the forward position for the PVI-800 to work properly, though the datalink switch should be switched forward for it to work.

 

8. At 5:00, you actually turned on the altitude hold channel while leaving all the other channels off. Due to a long-standing bug, the lights for the autopilot channels are inverted (dim is on, bright is off). In normal operation, the bank, pitch, and heading channels should always be on.

 

9. At 7:04, the throttles should only be put into the max position for emergency situations only, for example if one engine goes out and you absolutely need the extra lift. For normal operation, the throttles should only be used in the auto position.

 

10. At 8:30, the trim reset is a workaround for the majority of joysticks being spring-based and not intended to be used with helicopters. I wrote a very long post here that explains the 3 different trim modes and how they work:

 

11. At 9:50, the rotation of the helicopter is due to two things: at 5:50 the heading hold channel was not turned on, and because the two rotors generate slightly different amounts of torque. It is not due to centrifugal force.

 

12. At 12:32, the p indicates that the altitude source is from the radar altimeter. It goes away above 300m because the helicopter will switch to the barometric altimeter. This distinction is important because above 300m when the p goes away, the number will most likely jump to a completely different value, because the altimeter source is changing.

 

13. At 13:30, the bar and number on the lower right indicates your vertical velocity. The +01 shows that you are rising at 1 meter per second.

Very good points, even tho I haven't even wathed the video ;)

Small correction to one of your points :)

"In the forward position, the INU correction is done through the Shkval, and in the rear position, it's done through flying over a known reference point. This switch is only used in conjunction with the INU alignment buttons on the PVI-800."

The switch can be very important and it is not used only in conjuction with the alignment buttons. You can create mark points:

1. switch up, pvi to edit, select nav tgt, select the nav tgt number, press shkval uncage button and the coordinates where the shkval is looking are recorded into pvi as the selected nav tgt number.

2. If the switch is down, the current aircraft coordinates are recorded.

At the beginning, check outside air temperature and the underground so you know if you'll need to use the de-icing system and/or dust protection system. This influences the weight you can carry and thus the amount of orndance or fuel you can take with you.

At 1:14 when switching on the fuel quantity indicator, perform a quick test the gauge is actually functioning by pressing the test button to the side of the gauge. Since the fuel gauge is "always on", it's better to check its correct function otherwise you end up with no fuel somewhere down the line.

At 1:15 when you switch on EKRAN, it's better to reset master caution and then tap the button again to initiate the EKRAN BIT and view the EKRAN window as it goes through its BIT, only then will you know the system is properly functioning. Same goes for testing bitching betty, push the EKRAN test button to see if she actually will talk to you.

At 2:00 it's better to test the fire system before flipping the switch, with random failures active it's better to perform a test of this mission critical system.

at 3:32 you switch on the EEGs but AFAIK this should only be done after both engines are spooled up and the throttle set to the auto position.

at 4:50 it's not a radio switch, this is the Datalink system and you're switching it to the Commander position, basically it means you're the commander of the Datalink. Normally, in PS this is true but in a MP environment, this could well be a Wingmen position, depending on your position in the flight.

at 5:42 you switch on the LWS and UV-26 but do not test the systems, it's good advise to test these systems to make sure they work properly.

at 6:35 you do not switch on the signal flare system, it's always good to have this armed in case of an emergency although not necessary for flight.

At 6:41, test your ADI by selecting its test function and see if it operates correctly, it's one of the primary flight instruments, better make sure it actually works.

As already stated above, no need to put the throttles anywhere but the Auto position once the engines are spooled up.

At 9:22 because you aren't adding right cyclic, the helicopter will turn to the left, also, your pedal indicator show you've added some left pedal input. Put the diamond so it sits on top of the horizontal line and that the left side of the diamond touches the vertical bar on the control indicator, no need for pedal input. This way, when you pull collective, the helicopter goes straight up without wanting to move, beside weather cocking into the wind...

10:10, no lights on the gear indicator means it's traversing, not that it's up. Only with three reds do you know the gear is positively up and green for positively down.

Overall a good video for pilots who need to be derusted, not necessarily new pilots because you're not telling the people WHY certain switches need to be set and what their systems do.

Though those are good points to bring up, I personally skip all the BIT tests and other tests because, unlike in real life, we get a perfect helicopter every time in the sim. After doing a startup for the umpteenth time, it gets tiring running a test that you know will succeed 100% of the time.

Are you sure? DCS offers random failures in the options. Also the mission editor allows to add failures for each aircraft and you can add some randomness to it.

In real life, you want to run the tests because they can mean the difference between life and death. In the sim, it hardly matters. Random failures occur so infrequently that when they do happen, you can just restart the mission or deal with it. Almost no missions will add in failures, and if they do, it's almost always some kind of failure training mission.

It's up to you if you want to run the tests or not depending on what level of realism you're looking for, but in the years that I've been flying the Ka-50, I've never seen any need to run them. There are also other things that you're supposed to do during the startup that nobody ever does because they have no effect in the sim. For example, you're supposed to wait 1 minute after starting the APU before you start the main engines, which nobody does. You're also supposed to contact ATC to do a hover check before you ask them again for clearance to the runway for a rolling take-off, but most people will just take off immediately from the parking spot.

If you follow the startup checklist to the letter, running every test and doing everything you're supposed to in real life, it will easily take 10 minutes assuming you're familiar with the entire process. Conversely, understanding that this is a sim, the limitations of the systems modeling, and your goal (do you want to blow stuff up or sit on the ramp flipping switches?), you can get the helicopter airborne in less than 2 minutes.

This is a good thread.

I like the vid.

I also think you should set your UV26 to 222 or 232.

Also... you might mention that in transit you should fly with your gear up, but as soon as you fence in or get within weapon range you should lower your gear. One of the Achilles Heals of the KA50 is that EVERY SINGLE ROUND fired in your general direction will damage your landing gear. All of them. Every time. Better to leave them down if there's a chance of rain.

In real life, you want to run the tests because they can mean the difference between life and death. In the sim, it hardly matters. Random failures occur so infrequently that when they do happen, you can just restart the mission or deal with it. Almost no missions will add in failures, and if they do, it's almost always some kind of failure training mission.

 

It's up to you if you want to run the tests or not depending on what level of realism you're looking for, but in the years that I've been flying the Ka-50, I've never seen any need to run them. There are also other things that you're supposed to do during the startup that nobody ever does because they have no effect in the sim. For example, you're supposed to wait 1 minute after starting the APU before you start the main engines, which nobody does. You're also supposed to contact ATC to do a hover check before you ask them again for clearance to the runway for a rolling take-off, but most people will just take off immediately from the parking spot.

 

If you follow the startup checklist to the letter, running every test and doing everything you're supposed to in real life, it will easily take 10 minutes assuming you're familiar with the entire process. Conversely, understanding that this is a sim, the limitations of the systems modeling, and your goal (do you want to blow stuff up or sit on the ramp flipping switches?), you can get the helicopter airborne in less than 2 minutes.

2 minutes may work, but your INU will punish you right away ( Velocity indicator ! )

VVI still works without INU alignment, the HUD VVI and VVI gauge both use air pressure to indicate vertical velocity and is not dependent on the INU. Without the INU, ground speed info from the doppler radar won't be displayed in the HUD, but you still get ground speed info on the ABRIS from GLONASS, and IAS from the airspeed gauge. A full alignment before take-off is not really all that necessary unless you're flying at night without night vision and can't see the ground.

I love all the responses.. and most of this I knew. However, I knew this was going to happen with these videos. Please, remember what I mentioned in the first video. My objective here is to create a foundation of the BASICS to get new simmers or pilots new to the aircraft up in the air and enjoying the experience of DCS World.

I intentionally ran things in a way that will "work" with DCS and not necessarily in real world practice. Yes, DCS has the ability to create failures and adverse effect based on the above. However, I am creating these videos for the user that isn't familiar with the aircraft and thus probably won't engage such failures.

I have to be selective on what information to put into these videos and how much detail to get into as not many viewers are going to sit and watch an hour long video each time. Not, to mention that most viewers aren't going to retain that information after 45 minutes of it. It is truly one of the struggle points for all content creators I believe. More information = more time / more time typically = less of it watched.

Please, keep the information coming though. I can't stress enough that there is soo much information missing from the documentation in the SIM that certainly pilots will benefit from all this information.

First thing you do in DCS at start up is; comms to ground crew and connect external power online (door open no noise). This is DCS and there is always one external gen lying around somewhere.

The external power will power EVERYTHING!

Switch on the batteries, switch on the external DC and AC power.

Spool up the nav and Abris systems immediately, engage the fuel pumps and start the APU, All comms on, Ekran on and work the back right panel.... it is all powered!!!!!

If APU is still cooking engage the defensive weapons. rotate your head in pit and engage the left engine, continue switching the KA-50s electronic systems on as the left engine spools... if you are lucky enough to have a vibrating jet seat then your arse will tell you when the left engine has reached rotor idle speed... scan the dials to check all well?

Spool the right engine.... plenty of work left in the pit left to do. start setting scan frequencies for the shkval and defensive weapons to your preference.

Drop the HMS and dial in the eye piece, hud and targeting monitor to todays brightness and contrast.

Crank up those engines to nominal power, switch off the APU, disengage external AC and DC power, command disconnection of external power.... and there you are, hot to trot, nav aligned, defence ready to pop and weapon free real fast! Nothing brings weapon to life quicker than external power!

I think it is probably only me that starts the KA50 every time like my very life depends on getting the hell out of dodge city real fast!

The issue is not that you left things out; I can understand not doing all the tests or running through the entire checklist because some things don't matter in the sim. The issue is that some of the things you state are flat-out incorrect. You're not just omitting things for the sake of brevity, you're teaching something that's completely wrong.

You also only explain the what, but not the why; if you really want new players to absorb the information, you need to explain why you are doing what you're doing. By contrast, this startup video series explains every step in the startup (including tests) and also why they need to be done. It's over an hour long for all 7 parts, but it's very comprehensive and thorough. I doubt anyone watching it will find it to be a waste of time because, although long, it gets straight to the point, explains why certain things need to be done, and covers nearly everything you'd need to know:

If you really want to save time, take my advice from the other thread; cut out your 30-second intro, quit the small talk at the beginning, and speed up the video.

First thing you do in DCS at start up is; comms to ground crew and connect external power online

This is not necessary. The batteries can power the INU, ABRIS, and EKRAN directly without ground power or the AC generators running. Since you need the APU to start the engines, ground power does not affect how quickly you can start both engines. To tell when you can switch from one engine to the other for startup, wait for the START VLV light to go out at around 60% RPM.

The only thing that ground power allows you to power up before both engines are started and generating AC power, is the Shkval display, HMS, weapons systems, and UV-26 countermeasures. The Shkval display will need to be adjusted depending on the distance to target, so it's not too important to set it on the ground. Same goes for the HMS depending on how you're using it. The UV-26 can be set within seconds.

It doesn't hurt to use ground power, but I find it to be extra steps that aren't necessary and don't really save any time.

The issue is not that you left things out; I can understand not doing all the tests or running through the entire checklist because some things don't matter in the sim. The issue is that some of the things you state are flat-out incorrect. You're not just omitting things for the sake of brevity, you're teaching something that's completely wrong.

 

You also only explain the what, but not the why; if you really want new players to absorb the information, you need to explain why you are doing what you're doing. By contrast, this startup video series explains every step in the startup (including tests) and also why they need to be done. It's over an hour long for all 7 parts, but it's very comprehensive and thorough. I doubt anyone watching it will find it to be a waste of time because, although long, it gets straight to the point, explains why certain things need to be done, and covers nearly everything you'd need to know:

 

 

If you really want to save time, take my advice from the other thread; cut out your 30-second intro, quit the small talk at the beginning, and speed up the video.

1. So, after reading through your assessment of my mistakes, there were only two that struck me as "incorrect" for DCS purposes.

2. I am doing the best I can with the information available to me. I stated in my first video that the documentation readily available to a user who just picked up DCS and the Ka-50 is pretty limited. You clearly have a great understanding of the aircraft that I wish I had. Truly.

Do you have a document or readily available source of information that I can look at and learn from? The best source I have been able to find is Chuck's Ka-50 document which I thought was very good... I'm not trying to deliver bad information. I take the information I have, the information I can find, and the rest I try to figure out the best I can and then present what works in the end. The autopilot lights being a perfect example. I had no idea that was a bug. Yes, I could have gone and dug through probably months or years of posts to find it... but that's not particularly realistic. So, if you have a good document please share it with me. I'm not trying to be an ass at all... genuinely asking.

3. You must have had to dig for the video. I searched for days and looked at multiple Ka-50 videos that I could find on YouTube and that one never came up. I'm sorry you don't like my intro. As, you can tell by my number of subscribers, my channel is still very much in its' infancy. I made that intro myself and thought it was cool. I agree it is a little long. However, just that one took me about 4 days to make as again... I'm new to all of this and still learning. I am working on a shorter one. As, for the small talk, I'm a sociable guy. I don't know what to say other than that. I feel like there are subscribers who don't mind hearing me chat for a second. I also, completely disagree that making a one hour video that explains the why's and why not's would be just as successful. Most viewers, of game content videos search a video for a specific portion and then leave. However, this may be a topic to agree to disagree.

4. Finally, I don't feel like it's a bad video or that I blatantly gave incorrect information. Can someone who is brand new to the aircraft or the sim in general watch that video and start the aircraft? Are there any steps that I included in it that are going to completely ruin their game play or enjoyment of the sim? (With the exception of the autopilot lights - that one I had no idea about the bug. I will definitely correct that. There are 3 others that I fly with that had no idea about that either.) Even, the issue with the throttles going to max, I have been flying it like that since I started (I won't be now given the information you provided me). Anyway, it just seems that my video irritated you and I apologize. Certainly, not what I'm looking to do with my channel. Simply, going by my understanding of the information I gather and trying to simplify it for someone who wants to be a part of the DCS environment who doesn't have the information or experience you have.

Beginning with the end in mind. You wouldn't teach someone to rev the car up to 5000RPM all the time before driving would you?

A lot of the comments made are stated because they cause problems further into the flight. The throttle setting being the main culprit in my opinion. It's stated in the manual which setting you should use and why.

Starting up the KA50 with the intent of flying it is one thing and yes, up to a degree you could use your video for that. The main thing is it teaches some elements where the student will need to unlearn these things before being able to effectively and efficiently fly the KA50.

After flying comes combat with all the bits and bops attached to it, weapon employment, defensive systems, battle damage, the list goes on.

There are a lot of information sources available on how to start up the KA50 and why, there is very little need to change this procedure because, in the end, everyone has tried it one way or the other and all come back to the basics of starting her up.

Information about the Ka-50 is spread across a lot of places. Most of it is in bits and pieces on this forum, some of it is in videos, and some is in the manual. There's no definitive source of info on the aircraft, and the manual is often wrong or outdated.

One thing I find helpful is to test all your assumptions. For example, you might think that the NAV switch on the right panel powers the PVI-800, so flip it off and see what happens. If the PVI-800 doesn't turn off, find out which switch you need to flip in order to do so. Once you find it, you'll realize that the K-041 power switch also provides power to the PVI-800, and it takes precedence over the NAV switch. From this, we can infer that the NAV switch is either a backup switch, or only used for ground checks. Checking the manual on page 158 seems to suggest the same thing, where it says "This switch governs power and ground checks for the targeting navigation system." A lot of the knowledge I've come by is either through this kind of experimenting, or by wondering what a certain thing actually does, then doing a search for it. I then test the info I find because not everyone is correct is basing it either off assumptions, or is repeating something someone else said.

I found the video a while back when I was learning the Ka-50 and I bookmarked it. It's a bit lower on the YouTube searches due to its age, but it's by far the best DCS training video I've watched across all aircraft, likely because it was a commercial product:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=42223

Sadly, it seems like either this was the only video produced, or that nobody bought the DVD.

As for your intro, think about what you do when you watch other people's videos. Do you sit through their intro, or do you just skip it? Maybe you'd tolerate a 5-second intro, but I'd imagine that most people will hit the right arrow key a few times once the first 5 seconds has passed.

If you're looking for specific pieces of information, do you want to sit around listening to someone ramble on about their life? This video is a great example of how not to start off a video:

Do you really care that he hasn't had the time to play a lot because he was moving, and that the sound quality is a bit more echo-y because he hasn't been able to sound dampen things? Or do you only care about what the title states, how to use the Ka-50 as a scout helicopter? In this day and age, if the video hasn't caught your interest based on the title and thumbnail alone, you're already watching something else. Having to continually skip past non-relevant sections is a great way for people to just drop watching the video altogether, because if the first 30 seconds doesn't give you what you want, why should they expect that the next 9:30 will? We give a pass for DCS videos because there just aren't that many out there, but adding needless elements to a video is a great way to turn people of because, as the meme goes, "ain't nobody got time for that".

New Project

Hi there, thanks for posting that start up guide. It looks like a great vid and I will definitely check it out. I'm just at the start of learning the Ka50 and man oh man it looks daunting but I'm still keen as I love rotors. I'm just wondering if there is any documentation as in maybe a DCS manual or something like that to help beginners get a foot hold?

Regards Gaz

The only thing that ground power allows you to power up before both engines are started and generating AC power, is the Shkval display, HMS, weapons systems, and UV-26 countermeasures.

It doesn't hurt to use ground power, but I find it to be extra steps that aren't necessary and don't really save any time.

Isn't Battery failure do to excessive cold modelled ?

I don't have a definitive answer, but based on my experience, I don't think so. I do know that the batteries never run down. I've sat on the ramp for hours with all the battery-powered systems turned on, and it never dies.

Roger

Hi there, thanks for posting that start up guide. It looks like a great vid and I will definitely check it out. I'm just at the start of learning the Ka50 and man oh man it looks daunting but I'm still keen as I love rotors. I'm just wondering if there is any documentation as in maybe a DCS manual or something like that to help beginners get a foot hold?

Regards Gaz

I have found Chuck's library to be the best for a good solid foundation of to learn from.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135765

Hope this helps!

Thanks kindly

I have found Chuck's library to be the best for a good solid foundation of to learn from.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135765

 

Hope this helps!

Hey thanks Pac-Man, appreciate that mate.

I’ve used Chucks guide for the FA/18C Hornet and found it awesome, it really helped me out and is still doing so. I’ll check those links and hopefully makes some sense of it all heh.

Thanks again, very kind.

Regards G

:thumbup:

Whoa! Just checked Chucks guide, it looks amazing and also has my Warthog throttle n stick mapping, INSANE! Says last update 2015 but I'm sure still relative today.

This is not necessary. The batteries can power the INU, ABRIS, and EKRAN directly without ground power or the AC generators running. Since you need the APU to start the engines, ground power does not affect how quickly you can start both engines. To tell when you can switch from one engine to the other for startup, wait for the START VLV light to go out at around 60% RPM.

 

The only thing that ground power allows you to power up before both engines are started and generating AC power, is the Shkval display, HMS, weapons systems, and UV-26 countermeasures. The Shkval display will need to be adjusted depending on the distance to target, so it's not too important to set it on the ground. Same goes for the HMS depending on how you're using it. The UV-26 can be set within seconds.

 

It doesn't hurt to use ground power, but I find it to be extra steps that aren't necessary and don't really save any time.

"It doesn't hurt to use ground power, but I find it to be extra steps that aren't necessary and don't really save any time."

Really?

Really Ranma13!

You do not have enough wartime me reckons, not enough spool time under mortar fire I reckon mate. It has to be the reason you would make such a mistake when I can half the spool time due to external power!

The way you do it, the AC power supply comes from a fully spooled rotor blade! This powers the majority of the high end electronic systems!

The way I do it the AC power is delivered from an external power source instantaneously, it powers the nav and computer, weapon and defensive systems form the get go!

The KA-50 is Weapon ready, opticallyready, Navigation ready when the engines finally reach full spool.

Ranma13, we can spool our choppers side by side and I will walk my Kannon up and down your ass half way through your start up.

Suit yourself:

Instant action mission Cold Start in Mozdok, airborne at 2:20, you're dead at 2:27.