Will VirPil and VKB ever get their together?

So, I've been patiently waiting for months for either one of these two to start actually offering their products for sale. I've been checking about twice a week, every now and then seeing an update that's gone from stating thuff will be available, let's see, first it was July, then August, then September, and now it's "to be determined". I'm done. I'm getting a TM Warthog, and either sticking with it, or getting an FSSB Lightning if I decide to upgrade.

There's really no excuse for this. It's one thing if you occasionally fall behind, but leading everyone on for months (or years, for all I know), then saying "we really have no idea when this product we've been advertising will be available" is unacceptable. There's no problem that a company that manufactures and sells in-demand products at a premium price can't overcome. There's obviously a positive cash flow, and the potential for plenty more, and shortcomings in production speed respond to the generous application of money. It takes money to make money, so spend it,keep your customers happy, and you will no doubt bring in more. This reeks of incompetence, or at least an aversion to risk that suggests a lack of business acumen.

You will be definitely sticking with Warthog when you get it.:thumbup:

It is the "boutique" style of these guys.

Virpil was pretty good in keeping inventory at first on the parts for the T-50 gimbal and stick, one could place an order and get it shipped in a couple of weeks. Now that they are doing more (Throttle and WarBRD) seems they have gone to batch runs as well like VKB does.

I don't think either of these two are going to lay out the cash to keep very much inventory available from stock, maybe as they grow they might get to that point - but they are servicing a fairly small niche within another fairly small niche.

It can be frustrating for those that want one, I know I have been there and was extremely frustrated. But if can hang in there and get one , they really can't be beat.

I eventually got one of each, Virpil Mongoos T-50 and VKB Gunfighter Pro /MCG Pro , but man the waits were brutal. Still very glad I hung in there and have them now.

Regarding the Warthog, put an extension on it and center mount to desk - really helps make it a pretty decent stick.

I've been patiently waiting for months for either one of these two to start actually offering their products for sale.

Yet, many of us have been able to order, and receive their controllers, in that period...

VPC started out small, and clearly have growing pains.

What I find interesting about your post, is that you are applying your western style of business logics to companies based in Russia... What makes you believe that they have the same possibilities as western based companies?

VPC is based in Belarus not Russia.

In my opinion it very much depends on the different online-shops. After waiting and searching for months in the European shop of VKB, I got sick and tired of it and addressed a mail directly to the American site. Quess what - I received my Gunfighter Mk I withing a few weeks. No problems, perfect quality, best service. :thumbup:

VPC is based in Belarus not Russia.

Or, Belorussia... :)

Semantics.

For the purpose of conducting business, it’s still not done according to western standards.

Their postal and customs service is a nightmare, for one.

Though, last time it wasn’t so bad. Maybe they are improving.

I know but still, they are a sovereign country. Mine was shipped last Tuesday and should be delivered tomorrow, shipping time is pretty good.

they are a sovereign country.

As is the Ukraine, where they also speak Russian. :)

Mine was shipped last Tuesday and should be delivered tomorrow, shipping time is pretty good.

Yeah, mine as well.

Last time it spent two weeks in the export customs.

My point was, that it is hardly suprising that things may progress slightly slower than what we westerners are accustomed to. That doesn’t mean VPC doesn’t ”have their $h!+ toghether” as the OP says.

WH has nothing on VKB, just saying. I like my WH grip, but as soon as I got my VKB base I chucked the Thrustmaster base and no regrets.

Actually it wouldn't be considered good service there either, they would however expect the service to be bad because anything else would be unusual.

Yet, many of us have been able to order, and receive their controllers, in that period...

 

VPC started out small, and clearly have growing pains.

 

What I find interesting about your post, is that you are applying your western style of business logics to companies based in Russia... What makes you believe that they have the same possibilities as western based companies?

So, advertising a product, and ensuring you have the ability to keep enough stock on hand so that your customers aren't waiting months for a product, getting fed up, and going with the readily-available product to sink their money into something they'll probably only buy once in their life, in a market that's already exceedingly small, that's a Western thing? See, call me a culture snob or "ugly American" or whatever the Hell you want to in that case, but I'm not a cultural relativist. Some are clearly better than others, at least in some regards, and if that is a cultural norm among people hoping to compete in a World-wide (but again, small) market, then you probably ought to abandon that practice, tradition, or whatever you want to call it. This is rapidly becoming a global economy. Evolve, or die; your choice.

As is the Ukraine, where they also speak Russian. :)

 

 

 

Yeah, mine as well.

Last time it spent two weeks in the export customs.

 

My point was, that it is hardly suprising that things may progress slightly slower than what we westerners are accustomed to. That doesn’t mean VPC doesn’t ”have their $h!+ toghether” as the OP says.

Several months isn't "slightly slower", and I stand by my opening statement. I purchase things from all over the World on a frequent basis, from common items to tight-toleranced one-off hand-machined parts, and I have never encountered a situation like this. As far as I can gather, nothing in their shop is hand-sculpted or machined or anything like that. Even if they're soldering individual components onto a PC board on-site,which I doubt, even that's not such a time and labor-intensive task on a device like that, that after leading people on for months, you should find this on their site: "Next batch availability: To be determined by VKB HQ." What the HELL is that?

And just so I understand the rules: is it considered bad form on this site to complain about a for-profit company that advertises its wares on here when they apparently think their product is so precious that they can hit you with "Next batch availability: To be determined by VKB HQ.", and you, what exactly, should consider it a privilege to continue waiting for their product until whenever they're damned good and ready to let you know when they might have one? Yeah, I'll get right on that! Meanwhile, I'll get a Warthog, and mod it with the FSSB Lightning. I don't mind plunking down $650 for a joystick with buttons if I know I'll have it sometime before senility sets in.

Nope. Totally missed my point there.

I’m not talking about business tradition or anything else you brought up in your post.

I don’t think Virpil, or VPC, want these delays any more than you do.

But they operate from a former Soviet state, still finding its way towards the global market thst you talk about. They don’t have the same resources you and I are accustomed to.

They operate in a part of the world where it’s not just a matter of investing more money to make money, as you put it.

But if you don’t want to understand, there’s nothing I can do to make you :)

The upside is that they make some of the best joysticks available for our niche market, even if it takes a while to get it out to the customers.

And again, I was able to order their products. Maybe I can help?

WH has nothing on VKB, just saying. I like my WH grip, but as soon as I got my VKB base I chucked the Thrustmaster base and no regrets.

I'm a former submarine sonar technician with a complete machine shop, including a CNC center, in my basement. Maybe I should just make the frickin' thing and quit bitching. It would probably blow away anything out there, for sale or otherwise.

Nope. Totally missed my point there.

I’m not talking about business tradition or anything else you brought up in your post.

I don’t think Virpil, or VPC, want these delays any more than you do.

But they operate from a former Soviet state, still finding its way towards the global market thst you talk about. They don’t have the same resources you and I are accustomed to.

They operate in a part of the world where it’s not just a matter of investing more money to make money, as you put it.

But if you don’t want to understand, there’s nothing I can do to make you :)

 

The upside is that they make some of the best joysticks available for our niche market, even if it takes a while to get it out to the customers.

 

And again, I was able to order their products. Maybe I can help?

C'mon, man! These guys aren't hammering out guns with hand tools on some goat trail in Ubekistan. They have access to the internet, modern shipping organizations, electricity, and from what I understand, significant sums of cash that trusting customers are plunking down, in advance, on a product that they'll deliver, what, whenever they don't have to worry about dodging sniper fire on the way to the post office? Here, check this guy out:

This guy could make flight sticks out of camel vomit and monkey snot, and have it delivered to my door before I'm up scratching myself and beating my kids in the morning.

Anyway: Are you saying you might have a solution to my dilemma?

Actually, that's far from his best video. I've been following him; he makes very elaborate jet engines in his very basic machine shop, often using salvaged parts from cars and other unrelated things. He's brilliant!

There’s more to selling products than design and production. If you have a company like VPC, you have employees, taxes to pay and laws to follow.

Are you saying you might have a solution to my dilemma?

I don’t know?

You’re the one saying VPC needs to get their $h!+ together because you are unable to order their products.

I have ordered the MT-50 stick grip and used it on my BRD stick. I then ordered the MT-50 Base. Even sent it back for a new one, because I broke it. Excellent customer care, BTW. My MT-50 throttle is now in country. Should be here today, or tomorrow.

So, maybe I know something that you don’t? As I am successful in ordering their products, I mean.

I make my own controllers too. :)

Hi ElCuco68,

So I'm not quite sure how this applies to us (VPC), especially considering our recent announcements. When I first read this post I thought it was an old thread that got bumped up from a few months ago, I'm happy to clarify the situation though;

To get to the main point: Our products are for sale. We have just recently fulfilled ALL outstanding EU customer orders (ahead of schedule actually) and as per our last announcement all our worldwide store pre-orders will be dispatched by 1st October. There is no "to be determined" element, so I'm unsure what you're referring.

If you visit our webstore we actually have our grips, WarBRD base, MongoosT-50 throttle, and accessories etc available in-stock for immediate dispatch. The exception being our MongoosT-50 base which we will be updating in an announcement very soon.

Perhaps the confusion is from our worldwide store being temporarily closed, however the information page explains this with a link to the full announcement. Our worldwide store is merging with our EU store so that we can better serve our worldwide customers and it will be opening on 1st October - an upgrade to our company and again, not an indeterminate date.

To say we have an "aversion to risk" or lack "business acumen" also seems slightly unjust, to put this in perspective we are a company of ~1.5 years old, yet we already have for sale and in the hands of many users: a 2 flightstick bases, a throttle, 2 grips (plus variations) and a catalogue of accessories. We have invested, and re-invested into the company heavily with the opening of our dedicated production factory in Belarus earlier this year (the opening of which is the main culprit of shipping delays earlier this year), however we felt this was a necessary risk and trade off in the grand scheme of things to ensure a bigger and better future for us and the flightsim community.

Our team has also grown substantially, including Baur of BRD fame becoming VPC's chief designer.

VIRPIL Controls (VPC) and VKB are entirely different companies with different product line ups and philosophies. Obviously I don't know VKB's situation, however as of today I'm not too sure how much of your post actually applies to us? The description in your first paragraph certainly isn't something we've said.

If you're ever confused about VPC, our webstores or availability, please feel free to just get in touch.

It can be frustrating for those that want one, I know I have been there and was extremely frustrated. But if can hang in there and get one , they really can't be beat.

The thing with these batch runs is, first you wait a few years and when they actually produce a batch, you must be quick. If you miss that window of maybe a few weeks (because you got bored to check their news every week ... ), it's another 6-12 months of wait. IF they not switch over to another product (i.e. another 1-2 years waiting).

No matter how good their products are, but I am getting too old to wait half a decade for a f*ng joystick ...

The thing with these batch runs is, first you wait a few years and when they actually produce a batch, you must be quick. If you miss that window of maybe a few weeks (because you got bored to check their news every week ... ), it's another 6-12 months of wait. IF they not switch over to another product (i.e. another 1-2 years waiting).

 

No matter how good their products are, but I am getting too old to wait half a decade for a f*ng joystick ...

We don't do batch runs, our products are continuously manufactured at our factory :thumbup:

Maybe I should have made two separate posts; one for your company, and one for VKB. I'll cop to hat, and that only. This is what I was referring to https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product=gunfighter-mk-ii

Unfortunately, you and VKB are pretty much the only ones making these upper-tier controls, and given that you both seem to have a problem keeping stock on hand that's more the rule than the exception, so you're probably going to get lumped in together. This situation is what it is, and for whatever reason or combination of reasons that it's occurring, we don't have to like it, but we have to live with it or go pound sand, right? Well, just the same, if this hit-or-miss availability is going to be the norm, you're just going to have to accept that your customers or potential customers may not all be okay with it, and may complain. Your only other recourse if you don't like people complaining about having to wait for months or years for your products (and that is the reality of it, or at least it is for a significant portion of your customers) is to abandon this particular business venture or, as we were always told when I was part of a marine infantry battalion, "adapt, improvise, and overcome". Similarly, if we don't like the wait, our only recourse is to find another product.

That said, you're apparently saying to me that I should have no problem obtaining, in a timely manner, essentially everything except the Mongoose base once your Worldwide store opens up again on 1 October? If so, what do I need to do to ensure I get a crack at a T50CM stick and Warbird base? Are you able to take my credit card info now, or on 1 October? Because I'll recant everything I said here, and even write something to the effect of "I was wrong; these guys are the bee's knees and the cat's pajamas" along with a photograph of me eating my words in my tighty-whitys on this forum.

There’s more to selling products than design and production. If you have a company like VPC, you have employees, taxes to pay and laws to follow.

 

 

 

I don’t know?

You’re the one saying VPC needs to get their $h!+ together because you are unable to order their products.

I have ordered the MT-50 stick grip and used it on my BRD stick. I then ordered the MT-50 Base. Even sent it back for a new one, because I broke it. Excellent customer care, BTW. My MT-50 throttle is now in country. Should be here today, or tomorrow.

So, maybe I know something that you don’t? As I am successful in ordering their products, I mean.

 

I make my own controllers too. :)

 

Oh, okay. So I misunderstood. "

Maybe I can help" wasn't an actual offer to be helpful, just more trolling.

Maybe I should have made two separate posts; one for your company, and one for VKB. I'll cop to hat, and that only. This is what I was referring to https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product=gunfighter-mk-ii

Unfortunately, you and VKB are pretty much the only ones making these upper-tier controls, and given that you both seem to have a problem keeping stock on hand that's more the rule than the exception, so you're probably going to get lumped in together. This situation is what it is, and for whatever reason or combination of reasons that it's occurring, we don't have to like it, but we have to live with it or go pound sand, right? Well, just the same, if this hit-or-miss availability is going to be the norm, you're just going to have to accept that your customers or potential customers may not all be okay with it, and may complain. Your only other recourse if you don't like people complaining about having to wait for months or years for your products (and that is the reality of it, or at least it is for a significant portion of your customers) is to abandon this particular business venture or, as we were always told when I was part of a marine infantry battalion, "adapt, improvise, and overcome". Similarly, if we don't like the wait, our only recourse is to find another product.

As you mentioned, you were referring to a VKB post initially, which I obviously can't comment on - but as I said, we're two completely different companies with different philosophies.

Prior to our international webstore closing (17th September), it's been possible order at any time and you would have received your shipping notice before 1st October! Our EU customers have been able to join the order queue uninterrupted at any time. As all outstanding EU orders have now been fulfilled, we have stock available for immediate dispatch.

Regarding our products, it's not so much "hit-or-miss" availability - we do not manufacture in batches, we are continuously producing our products so any delay in shipping/availability will be due to very high demand or one off logistical changes (new factory, webstore moving, etc).

Going forward with the new merged webstore though, we will moving away from pre-orders/back-orders and instead listing stock that's readily available for dispatch which will be aided greatly by our new factory.

 

That said, you're apparently saying to me that I should have no problem obtaining, in a timely manner, essentially everything except the Mongoose base once your Worldwide store opens up again on 1 October? If so, what do I need to do to ensure I get a crack at a T50CM stick and Warbird base? Are you able to take my credit card info now, or on 1 October? Because I'll recant everything I said here, and even write something to the effect of "I was wrong; these guys are the bee's knees and the cat's pajamas" along with a photograph of me eating my words in my tighty-whitys on this forum.

Yes sir, come October 1st you'll be able to jump onto our new worldwide/EU merged store and place an order for the MT-50CM grip and WarBRD base no problems (stock permitting) and get your shipping notice within 5 working days (though likely sooner). Even still, let's say the demand on the opening day is so incredibly high that all stock gets bought before you get a chance to check it out, the next shipment of stock from our factory will be very close (as mentioned - it's running all the time!). Certainly will not be a case of months waiting.

I hope this helps! :thumbup:

"There’s more to selling products than design and production. If you have a company like VPC, you have employees, taxes to pay and laws to follow."

You don't say? Well, I totally retract everything I said! I had no idea that they had all these hurtles to jump through in their country. I just assumed they used slaves or clones or something, like I do, and claimed charity status when the government goons come around looking for their cut.

I know all about the problems that dog every business. I was only accounting for the variables that I felt might be extraordinary. And I definitely have sympathy for the fact that life in general can dump all manner of un-needed grief, complications, and unforseeable events. Believe me, if there's anything I've had to learn the hard way in my 50-year wobbly nightmare of a life, it's that. I also learned that life will run you over and spit you out without so much as a hiccup if you don't get good at getting out of its way, and that in today's cut-throat, instant-gratification global business environment, people want what they want, when they want it, or they go elsewhere, period. Our country's cottage industries are folding every day by the hundreds because they're either not willing or not able to make the paradigm shift. It's tragic, but that's the nature of evolution. I'd honestly, truly like to see these guys succeed, and I mean that with all sincerity. I'm not on here saying that these guys should be flogged to within an inch of their life and have their birthdays confiscated. I'm saying that not everyone is okay with waiting months or years for a product, especially when there's no readily-apparent end in sight. Should I NOT say what I know beyond a shadow of a doubt isn't just on my mind? Personally, I'd want to hear about it if I was running a business, and some of my customers felt the way I do. If I didn't, well, that would mean I didn't care if they felt that way, no?