Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

While preparing for the upcoming module, I found this in the NATOPS manual describing landing and takeoff characteristics of F18 FCS:

 

 

 

So the FCS actually encourages what we known as "throttle for GS and stick for AOA". An increase in throttle would result in a decrease in AOA, which would make the aircraft pull up by itself, so that AOA is maintained.

 

This would make carrier landing a lot easier than Su-33 IMO.

S!

neofightr

You have advised to use the throttle only for glideslope and the stick for centerline and AOA.

Attached is a diagram for an F18-e on how to use the throttle to control AOA to land on land.

So my question is: is there 2 different methods for landing, one on a carrier and one on land?

Angle of Attack Bracket.pdf

Jesus this thread! :D

It is fairly basic flying, except maybe for that the Hornet is flown on the approach at somewhat unconventionally high lift coefficient (=slow), and thereby being alpha sensitive. There are no mechanical do-this solutions, but one needs to fly the dynamics: the bracket responds best and almost immediately to the throttle, whereas to move the velocity vector positively, a combination of throttle and stick movement is the best. If one pulls the stick alone, the bracket lags behind, indicating increasing alpha, prompting one to add power.

Are the auto throttles a closed loop between the boat and the jet or does it work anywhere?

 

Are the Supers and Growlers using it when they're flying dry land patterns?

I am not sure about the later models of the hornet but in my time it was up to the pilot to use autothrottles which uses the the Flight Control System to maintain onspeed while the pilot directs the plane with the stick. The pilot is still in control of the plane and using autothrottles (mode 1a) can be done anywhere.

There is an autolanding mode (mode 1) that the Hornet has that uses the CLS telemetry provided by the ship's nav aid system to allow the hornet to land on the carrier hands off. This was not very reliable back in my day. No idea if it's still a feature and how good it is nowadays with the new hornets.

neofightr

 

You have advised to use the throttle only for glideslope and the stick for centerline and AOA.

 

Attached is a diagram for an F18-e on how to use the throttle to control AOA to land on land.

 

So my question is: is there 2 different methods for landing, one on a carrier and one on land?

No that diagram applies to the ship landings as well. It just simplifies what is expected for the pilot to do when using the aoa bracket. Remember that when using the throttle as per the diagram the plane's computers are maintaining the optimum AOA. Just like I stated earlier.

Thus there is no mention of using the stick for AoA corrections because the FCS is suppose to take care of it.

I believe all maritime f18 pilots have a basic understanding of ball flying even if they don't land on carriers but the carrier pilots land exactly the same way at the field as they do on the ship.

They have to to remain consistent. Part of the routine training for carrier pilots is field carrier landing practice (FCLPs). It's mandatory to do a certain amount of these sessions before heading out to the ship if the pilot has been away from the ship for more than a week or 2 if I recall.

Go look up Oceana or lemoore in google maps and look at the pictures of the runways and you will see a concentration of touchdown tire marks off centerline near the thresholds of the runway where they have a carrier box marked out and you will also make out the AOLS.

Remember the Advanced Optical landing system (the ball) is the other half of the equation that has not been discussed in this thread.

Once that comes online for the game, then you f18 fans/carrier pilot fans out there will get the true picture of what it takes to land on a ship. :book:

Did somebody say "Ball" ?

Neofightr

Now I am really confused.

Three quarters of a mile, call the ball! Maverick has the ball.

So like a Cessna, what's the problem? :huh: :D

 

 

S!

When you really boil it all down, all aviation is really just Cessna variants.

Neofightr

Now I am really confused.

I think what neofightr is describing is fine adjustments once already on speed. The diagram you posted shows how to get there.

Personally i really hate this argument of 'stick controls speed' ... 'no it doesn't, throttle does that' etc as it's an over simplification that leads to this kind of confusion.

When you really boil it all down, all aviation is really just Cessna variants.

Just ask the Media... :megalol:

I think what neofightr is describing is fine adjustments once already on speed. The diagram you posted shows how to get there.

 

Personally i really hate this argument of 'stick controls speed' ... 'no it doesn't, throttle does that' etc as it's an over simplification that leads to this kind of confusion.

When you dirty up on speed that's literally all there is to it. When you break to downwind you put the gear and flaps out, slow to on speed AOA (NOT an airspeed, we calculate a rough airspeed that on speed AOA should be around with level wings). This on speed AOA is calculated by the engineerds to be the optimal hook point for the ship. From the 180 you roll in, maintain your VSI targets to meet your checkpoint altitudes on the approach turn while maintaining on speed. Rolling into the groove you're still on speed, center to little high ball, and you're working the throttle from there. You literally will not have to move the stick forward or aft at all, mainly just left and right to maintain lineup. Throttle will move around (shouldn't be the huge power corrections you see on some videos) to maintain the ball.

Jesus this thread! :D

 

It is fairly basic flying, except maybe for that the Hornet is flown on the approach at somewhat unconventionally high lift coefficient (=slow), and thereby being alpha sensitive. There are no mechanical do-this solutions, but one needs to fly the dynamics: the bracket responds best and almost immediately to the throttle, whereas to move the velocity vector positively, a combination of throttle and stick movement is the best. If one pulls the stick alone, the bracket lags behind, indicating increasing alpha, prompting one to add power.

No, it's done with power. In fact, if you try to waveoff at the ramp and rotate the aircraft nose up you'll have an in-flight engagement or hook slap, both of which would be a bad day because your hook has hit/caught something while your aircraft isn't close to touching down. VV at the boat is purely a trend indicator and used in conjunction with the E bracket and lineup to maintain AOA, you can't set it on a spot on the runway like you can on land because the boat is moving.

All altitude changes in the pattern are done with power, not pitch. Pitch will follow power automatically when trimmed for an AOA/Airspeed, no user input required 90% of the time. There's the off chance you need to influence the nose a little after hitting a bump or something, but even then, the inputs are not even a quarter of what you do in non-carrier birds.

Not only is our landing strip moving, but it's also much smaller than your average runway. Pictured is a runway from a hornet base. Outlined is the carrier box (same dimensions as the boat) with the landing area boxed inside it.

If only the local rental Cessnas had enough shove to just power out of an approach...

One of the most counterintuitive things in private pilot training is the idea that you have to push the nose down as you add power when going around.

One of the most counterintuitive things in private pilot training is the idea that you have to push the nose down as you add power when going around.

You do want to rotate the aircraft nose up during a go around and I certainly don't consider active pitch control counterintuitive.

You do want to rotate the aircraft nose up during a go around and I certainly don't consider active pitch control counterintuitive.

No you do NOT pull the nose up during a go around... At least "pulling up" is not the first thing you do.

At least not in a C172 with full flaps trimmed to land. Fastest way I know of to die in a stall / spin accident.

Power will arrest the descent and you have to physically hold a level deck attitude and milk the flaps up as you slowly raise the nose while gathering speed.

No you do NOT pull the nose up during a go around... At least "pulling up" is not the first thing you do.

 

At least not in a C172 with full flaps trimmed to land. Fastest way I know of to die in a stall / spin accident.

 

Power will arrest the descent and you have to physically hold a level deck attitude and milk the flaps up as you slowly raise the nose while gathering speed.

Throttles mil or if directed max from lso. You maintain on speed in the e bracket, throughout the go around and it rises above the horizon. Flaps dont come up unless theyre going to flaps half for an extended pattern during case iii or the boss says to depart which is unlikely given your already established in the pattern. Keys to flying this type of flying, 3 point power corrections, knowing a good neutral power point, keeping lineup in scan, and following paddles rules to live by. There are very slight for and aft inputs, ever so small if your velocity vector lags outside the ebracket.

No you do NOT pull the nose up during a go around... At least "pulling up" is not the first thing you do.

That's not what bbrz said. He didn't say pull up, he said let the nose come up, and that's quite right. Whether you need to push/pull on the controls wasn't specified (although from my limited experience I agree, you probably will need to apply forward pressure).

While you're not technically wrong, sweeping statements only tell half the truth and can lead to confusion if you don't have a good understanding of the basics in the first place.

No you do NOT pull the nose up during a go around... At least "pulling up" is not the first thing you do.

 

At least not in a C172 with full flaps trimmed to land. Fastest way I know of to die in a stall / spin accident.

 

Power will arrest the descent and you have to physically hold a level deck attitude and milk the flaps up as you slowly raise the nose while gathering speed.

Where did I write that you should pull up the nose first? And are you sure that you are talking about a C172?

The approach speed is normally (at least) Vref +5kts which means 66kts. GA procedure is to apply full power, reduce flap to 10 or 20deg and climb at 60kts which means you will actually loose 6kts.

You can't 'milk' the flaps up because they are electric. If you apply full power and reduce drag by retracting the flaps your speed will immediately increase if you don't increase pitch attitude!

Stall speed even at MTOW and flaps 10 is only 42kts so I have no idea why you 'know' that you should stall & spin.

I have about 1,600 hours in Cessna 172s as a pilot and instructor, and I can confirm the nose definitely needs to rise during a go-around.

However, the act of adding power with full flaps means the nose will want to rise quite a bit on its own. Too much, actually! So as you add power you need to hold some forward pressure on the yoke to prevent the nose from rising too far. Perhaps that's the difference between your two experiences?

Once full power is established and the descent has shallowed, flaps are retracted one notch at a time, and the plane is re-trimmed (nose-down trim) for the climb.

I have about 1,600 hours in Cessna 172s as a pilot and instructor, and I can confirm the nose definitely needs to rise during a go-around.

 

However, the act of adding power with full flaps means the nose will want to rise quite a bit on its own. Too much, actually! So as you add power you need to hold some forward pressure on the yoke to prevent the nose from rising too far. Perhaps that's the difference between your two experiences?

Once full power is established and the descent has shallowed, flaps are retracted one notch at a time, and the plane is re-trimmed (nose-down trim) for the climb.

This is exactly what I meant...

Vs a Hornet, you can't hold the same AOA and just pour the coals to it and climb like a homesick angel.

Without some forward pressure (ie, hold the nose down) you run the risk of just self-rotating into a Trim Stall.

1. Vs a Hornet, you can't hold the same AOA and just pour the coals to it and climb like a homesick angel.

 

2. Without some forward pressure (ie, hold the nose down) you run the risk of just self-rotating into a Trim Stall.

1. If you fly at a similar high AoA like the F/A-18 does you could do it in a similar way. The AoA is approx 8deg which means a 5deg nose up attitude on a 3deg glideslope.

On the F/A-18 the approach speed is only 1.12 times the power off stall speed and at mil power it's the 'classic' 1.3 margin.

Vst with full flaps on the 172 is 40kts x 1.3 = 52kts. At that low approach speed even the nose of a 172 might be already slightly nose up.

If you keep this attitude and flap setting and apply full power, your 172 will most likely start climbing as well.

Btw, on most jets you aim for a target pitch attitude during the GA, not AOA, but maybe it's different on the F/A-18.

2. Don't know what a 'trim stall' should be but you should never ever let the aircraft fly you (e.g. self-rotate!) and let it increase its pitch attitude on its own.

There's zero stall 'risk' if you actively control the pitch attitude. That's why I wrote that there's nothing 'counterintuitive'.

Dunno about your world, but to me, there was nothing "normal" about "Hold the nose down in order to go up more efficiently"

I think most people's instinct would be to "pull up" and that's the absolute wrong thing to do when initiating a go around.

I was taught:

"Cram It" Power In

"Clean It" Work the flaps up (with corresponding pitch/trim adjustments as you gain airspeed)

"Climb It" Establish Positive Rate

"Call It" Declare "Going Around" on the radio (if necessary)

I think most people's instinct would be to "pull up" and that's the absolute wrong thing to do when initiating a go around.

But it's about pilots (with a valid licence) and not 'most people's instinct'.

Btw, fully retracting the flaps on a 172 during the initial GA (clean it) is a definite no-go.

Furthermore there are a lot of other planes than C172s and on many planes you do need to pull back on the yoke/stick to establish the correct GA attitude, so this isn't the 'absolute wrong thing' to do in many cases.

edit: just watched a few 172 GAs on youtube and in all cases the speed considerably increased during the GA, in two cases those guys where almost exceeding Vfe!

Even with flaps up Vx on a 172 is only 62kts!

Ok. Too much off topic, admitted. I'll stop right now ;)

I think we're somewhere on the same page...

;)

FWIW, I was introduced to "Going Around" on my second or third lesson so I was far from being a "Pilot" at that point. My home airport is a very busy Class D under a Class B shelf with a pilot-controlled airport just outside the Class D ring. Very much like a box of chocolates. You never knew what you were going to get. The wider training airspace south and east of Phoenix is, for lack of a better word, Busy, so the pace of the training syllabus was a little more accelerated than you might experience at some country airstrip. Heck, my fourth lesson included a Class B transition and I was expected to handle the radios and navigation. Kinda sweated bullets on that hop.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

When you really boil it all down, all aviation is really just Cessna variants.

S!