[Need your suggestion] JF-17 IFF in MP

Ok

DCS and its modules always use a simplified systems of automatic IFF by cohalition..

And most players (multiplayer pvp server) could not really use a real IFF with codes to enter for each aircraft and group.

I think that your module must follow all, otherwise it will be disadvantaged by its complexity..

Most of the people fly SP anyway, so keeping the real way would be fine for the majority of people.

Plus it would be something new, and new stuff is always welcome.

Also, don't forget you guys always think of PvP server having the JF-17 on both sides. But if it is only on one side...

Please keep the realistic iff (love it) and just add an simplified one for mp mode，and we can change it in the special setting page like the countermeasure program setting

JF-17 Realistic IFF Feedback

I don't play MP but like the way the Hornet and Mirage won't give friendly IFF ID's unless IFF is turned on and the interrogate button (perhaps auto in the Hornet) is used.

So I'd like to see the JF-17 need

• IFF enabled and a target interrogated

to IFF AI and other player aircraft i.e. for a player L-39 from the same coalition to be shown as friendly on the radar, .

As long as the IFF setup procedure and required mode is clear, it should be good.

Requiring correct IFF codes for PvP JF-17 to JF-17 interrogation should be a user/mission option and IMHO should default to off.

Realistic IFF

I don't like the idea of 'enemy' JF-17 fighters being able to spoof themselves as 'friends' and don't think JF-17's from another coalition should be able to return 'valid' codes unless it's *really* considered realistic.

A player JF-17 with wrong codes or a damaged/turned off IFF transponder, should return as 'unknown' to other players flying the JF-17.

• How does the AI AWACS see the same 'player JF-17', as 'unknown' or as a 'friendly' and how is that shown on the JF-17 datalink ?

I see 'Realistic IFF' as something used for JF-17 PvP and training servers as neither the AI or other player aircraft are effected - IMHO the feature is ahead of it's time but it's a 'nice to have' and a USP for the JF-17 Thunder.

I think that your module must follow all, otherwise it will be disadvantaged by its complexity..

This should never ever be a concern for DCS aircraft development!! A developer of a new aircraft module should never remove realistic functions, just because the aircraft would be more complex and more demanding than other DCS aircraft. It should be quite the opposite: Devs should strive for more complexity!

There will be no secret codes whatsoever. If someone runs a public multiplayer server for x amount of hours people will figure out the codes and they will be public. Since this is a game it is save to assume that people will abuse the codes for either powergaming or trolling.

 

DCS already has a problem regarding IFF in multiplayer, there are enough people flying purposfully with IFF off to provoke friendly fire just for the joy of getting people kicked / banned.

That's when you just talk with the other 17 pilots and change the code manually. As they have stated in the video, it is intentionally designed this way for realism, and they are aware of this.

Also arguments like "the JF-17 will only be used on one side anyways" make no sense at all, since this is entirely up to the server admin or the dude making the mission.

All the servers that are popular (i.e. the servers that people actually play on) generally have modules side locked, so yes, this does make sense. Yes, there are a bunch of small servers out there, but they would not have this problem to begin with as they are not populated, and are only really used (in my experience) by small groups of friends. So, the argument of "trolling" would not really be applicable in that situation.

...so a selectable option during mission editor that locks IFF would be nice, so server admins and mission builders can decide :)

I agree with this.

DCS and its modules always use a simplified systems of automatic IFF by cohalition..

 

And most players (multiplayer pvp server) could not really use a real IFF with codes to enter for each aircraft and group.

 

I think that your module must follow all, otherwise it will be disadvantaged by its complexity..

For NATO fighters, Mode 4 is pretty simple to use from pilot point of view.

Pilot just need to turn the transponder on, and eventually turn IFF interrogator on Mode 4.

It seems to be the same here with Mode 6.

I don’t see issues for MP if Mode 6 is assumed to be current coalition system.

I'm almost exclusively an SP player so I definitely like the look of the realistic IFF modes but from watching discussions of MP IFF issues on Reddit and Discord, etc I also think there has to be an option to switch to a simplified system

(And if time is an issue I'd lean toward implementing the simplified system first.)

I think the best solution (as ever) would be to offer choice. A lot (but far from all) of big multiplayer servers avoid having same aircraft on both sides at which point spoofing the IFF wouldn't be an issue.

The other thing to bear in mind with this is the only aircraft it would impact would be the JF-17 itself, for every other aircraft it would have no impact so a friendly F-14 / 18 / 2000 etc would see you as friendly no matter what, similarly enemy aircraft, that are not JF-17s would not be spoofed by you either.

It would be nice for ED to update IFF at a base level, part of me hopes that this is done once they get into more detail of the IFF systems (not just mode 4 that we effectively use, sort of, currently).

Well done though for leading the way on this, I hope you can work with ED in the future to help further this across the sim.

first post updated with the improvement

***** updated 09/30 ******

Hi guys,

Thanks for your insightful comments and invaluable suggestions!

I have below rough idea of improvement to share with you:

1. Module cannot add a global option set by server admin in missions, and simple IFF option in mission editor for each jf-17 is not practical that mission maker could miss one or two when there're lots of jf-17 in mission.
   
2. So the simplest way is to put a string "SimpleIFF ON" (or similar) in mission description, then we can extract that info to determine the simulation level of the IFF.
   
3. i'm not quite sure whether you need a toggle between simple IFF and custom IFF (when admin doesn't turn on Simple IFF). I think not all like custom IFF. So in MP, even admin doesn't force to use simple IFF, players can still determine which to use by themselves
   
4. priority: admin "Simple IFF On/Off" > player "Simple IFF toggle" > custom IFF
   
5. In MP, if admin turns on "Simple IFF", player still has to select M6 for both INT/TRS in UFCP, otherwise IFF will returns UNKNOWN (to simulation IFF on/off). But if you turn M6 on, then it's coalition based and simplest.
   

Regarding custom IFF:

1. M6 (like M4) is coalition based, and you can use A/B codes for further identification. (cannot be hacked by other side)
   
2. M2 is simple code matching for both INT/TRS, and code not time-varying (so can be hacked by other side)
   
3. M1 and M3 codes change periodically (red/blue has different change strategy), so even a blue hacked red code, he can mimic a friend of red only for a very short time (due to DCS's relatively short combat duration, i think the period should be about 10 min?)
   

Look forward to your "next round" feedback. :)

****************************************

I think the above is a good way to do it, it allows for the servers to choose their desired level of complexity. (Force simple on/off) I think thats the best solution as certain servers will want it one way or the other and that allows the most options for mission creators and servers to avoid potential problems.

Knowing that M4/M2 can't be hacked is good, I imagine people will really only pay attention to mode 4 due to it being coalition based and the least likely to give players problems.

10 minutes should be fine, I dont see any issues with that.

Honestly I would vote for just implementing the more sophisticated IFF system and then everyone in MP just switches to mode 6, so you just save time and resources by not implementing any of the "reading into the mission description string" and stuff like that.

What a lot of people are not noticing is the fact its only if jf-17s are on both sides of the conflict. they explicitly state that if its any other aircraft/or ai then that tactic will not work

how many servers have both sides the same aircraft?

also the custom iff string seems a bit silly and it should just be complex all the time, there are several ways to check to make sure its an actual player if its an enemy jf-17s giving false iff

one is to have some people not in a jf-17 and data link with them.

awacs should be able to defeat it since its ai so data linking with them should defeat it also

the f10 map

a commander looking at the map and guiding friendlies to enemy targets

etc

It’s a problem if someone on your side in a JF-17 doesn’t turn on his IFF identifies you as hostile and shoots you down. Bonus points if datalink isn’t on. It is realistic, but not best for everyone

It’s a problem if someone on your side in a JF-17 doesn’t turn on his IFF identifies you as hostile and shoots you down. Bonus points if datalink isn’t on. It is realistic, but not best for everyone

:huh: you mean exactly the way the dcs f18 hornet is where you have to turn on the iff?

the way you described the functionality in the A2A video is reasonable. I think it will allow the module to integrate with any change ED makes towards a more realistic IFF system in the future.

It’s a problem if someone on your side in a JF-17 doesn’t turn on his IFF identifies you as hostile and shoots you down. Bonus points if datalink isn’t on. It is realistic, but not best for everyone

Hmmn... I had my wing-man do that to me the other day. :megalol:

Me: "Wait, are you locking me up?"

Buddy: "Fox 3!"

:helpsmilie:

Please don't make enabling IFF too complicated!

It would be nice if, by default, it was just a simple on/off of the IFF mode.

Yeah, i like the revision they posted. I’m comfortable with the solution to select using codes or be coalition based. I would’ve been fine with only codes, but at least it will make an easier transition from FC3. Plus Deka said it was a mission option, so I think they have it worked out perfect

I don't know why you'd even want to operate any mode lower than M4 in-game.

If the F-15 had its beacon radar mode, it would run that silently and get everyone's position by pinging M1/2/3. Those aren't challenge-based AFAIK.

M4 should not respond at all without correct interrogation.

in BF I've tried M1 M4 and M6 IFF modes and for some reason, almost randomly friendly F-14 will sometimes show as bandits, and friendly F-16 will also sometimes show as hostile.

And for some reason DL contacts that are friendly will also sometimes show as hostile. I've had many F-14 on DL show as hostile, and sometimes even friendly AWACS shows as hostile. This is all multiplayer on Blue Flag PG.

Today I even had a friendly JF-17 show as friendly, then hostile, then unknown, then back to friendly all within about 30 seconds.

For me the IFF is the main concern that is currently keeping me from buying the JF-17.

I mainly play MP (99%) and as such having an IFF that is Simple to use

(and that cant be exploited by players on the enemy team)

is something that is key.

Currently im a bit confused as to how it works as ive read conflicting reports and they have also stated it might change in the future.

So im currently confused on the issue and will probably hold off buying the JF-17 untill i have a more clear understanding of how the IFF works

(and will work in the future).

It’s not as hard as it seems. Only the M6 is the custom IFF with codes. Everything else M1 M2 and M3A are coalition based. Just turn one on and you’re set. Just make sure you turn on one for INT and TRS

It’s not as hard as it seems. Only the M6 is the custom IFF with codes. Everything else M1 M2 and M3A are coalition based. Just turn one on and you’re set. Just make sure you turn on one for INT and TRS

Not quite. If the server is not using MAGIC_IFF, then it's custom IFF, but only between JF-17 MP players.

Custom IFF requires mode and code matching to be able to recognise friendly contacts.

For example if you set INT to Mode 2 with code 7777, and your buddy set TRS to the same, then you can see him as friendly (green).

If he set TRS to Mode 2 with code 7776, then you see him as a red contact.

If he set TRS to other modes, you'll get no response from his transponder and will see him as unknown (yellow).

Thanks for the clarification, knew I got something wrong. I also saw a reference that it might change, but don’t remember where on the forum I heard that

And this is the source of my worry and why im holding off on buying the JF-17 =P.

Most People in DCS are not cordinated enough for this to work reliably.

And having to rely on the servers i play forcing the IFF setting is not ideal as it very much limits where i can play.

Personally i very much prefer Simple IFF for the JF-17 untill ED makes advanced/realistic IFF game wide.

Since as is with the JF-17 having realistic IFF but everything else having Simple it just hurts JF-17 pilots

(making JF-17 vs JF-17 blue on blue incidents far more likely).

And it pains me since i really like the JF-17 and Small single engine fighters are what i love.