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Air to air refueling...


Rhinozherous

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Thanks again Sierra. You're a source of knowledge as always. I slowly get the feeling how much work a truly realistic flight sim would be and that is reasonable to draw some lines when it comes to realism. On the other hand I see that there is no computer progress in the future that brings us to an end of wishes. This bow waves of heavies will come with DCS 5 or 6.0 :D

 

 

You won't be surprised that I have another question about AAR: Does a real tanker bank and turn before or while contact without warning by radio communication like it is in DCS right now?

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Thanks again Sierra. You're a source of knowledge as always. I slowly get the feeling how much work a truly realistic flight sim would be and that is reasonable to draw some lines when it comes to realism. On the other hand I see that there is no computer progress in the future that brings us to an end of wishes. This bow waves of heavies will come with DCS 5 or 6.0 :D

 

 

You won't be surprised that I have another question about AAR: Does a real tanker bank and turn before or while contact without warning by radio communication like it is in DCS right now?

 

It depends on the Comm option being used and the environment. If we're comm out No. Training missions...usually yes. If the receiver had Boom Interphone I always gave them a heads up...Usually the tanker will call a turn out of courtesy. Despite the popular belief...Tankers don't hate the receivers. But they also have the same Nav instruments we have so they know when a turn is approaching. The Biggest different is Real tankers ease into the turn.

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The boom will automatically disconnect when it gets near to limits, ideally before it breaks stuff. But the pilot of the jet still has to do his bit to hold position.

 

Fair enough I guess. I've done it in the F15 and while its fairly easy to get lined up and connected I have issues "staying in the zone". Guess I just need more practice.

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The only thing o can add is IRL the only real "action / reaction" issue during refueling was directly related to the size of the receiver being refueling...but for completely different reasons. Fuel pressure and Bow wave.

 

With fighters you had to limit how many pumps you used during AR. Fighters are relatively light aircraft...,the fuel tube being free floating would telescope out due to pressure if the fighter wasn't taking the fuel as fast as it was being pumped. So I might make a contact at 12' but when we started passing fuel they'd slide back slowly to 13-14 feet. Enough to get a "fly forward" light on the PDIs. It usually wasn't aggressive event but it was directly related to the hydraulic effect of the fuel flow being somewhat constricted.

 

With heavies you could run 4 AR Pumps all days and they'd take the fuel without really noticing...but with heavies ya get a different interaction. Bow Wave. The nose of a heavy receiver (C-5 C-17, KC-10 etc) pushes a mass of air along in front of it that interacts with the tail of the tanker. As a C-5 closes to contact the air it's pushing with its nose begins to push UP against the tail of the tanker causing the tanker to want to descend. It also creates a big cushion between the two aircraft the receiver must push through as they close to contact. The same thing happens with fighters but to a lesser extent. They have to push through the tanker wake.

 

Thats interesting, and things I would have never thought about. Thanks!

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https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/2b2/2019-05-24-DCS-F-16C-18.jpg

 

When I see pictures like this I wanna yell " I CLAIM THE RIGHT OF PRIMA NOCTA!"

 

Real F-16s have all felt a Boomers touch and look like this:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/F-16_June_2008.jpg

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https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/upload/iblock/2b2/2019-05-24-DCS-F-16C-18.jpg

 

When I see pictures like this I wanna yell " I CLAIM THE RIGHT OF PRIMA NOCTA!"

 

Real F-16s have all felt a Boomers touch and look like this:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/F-16_June_2008.jpg

 

Wish I had the picture of when the boomers touch was a little rough. :cry:

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F-16s are easy...A-10s...they get beat up pretty bad...

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F-16s are easy...A-10s...they get beat up pretty bad...

 

Yeah, but they are sturdy girls, they can take it.

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It took me about three hours of practice and then it made sense. I also watched some good training videos. Here's my results:

 

 

 

The videos I found useful are linked in the description :smartass:

 

 

I am wondering how I'll do with a boom since all I am able to do now is the drogue. I'm looking forward to doing it in the F16, though...REALLY looking forward to it!


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The advantage you will have anyhow is that refueling using the AirForce-System should go much quicker than with the Navy-Drogues.

 

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Wish I had the picture of when the boomers touch was a little rough. :cry:

 

IIRC, on 89-2157, in the 310FS, Luke AFB in 1999: One boom hit the rear transparency, broke of the upper TACAN, destroyed the GPS antenna and bent the IFR door.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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  • 8 months later...
I do not think neither of this example would be good for the USAF F-16C circa 2007 after CCIP, for conversation sake.

 

Looking around USAF F-16C block 40/42 after CCIP circa 2011

Lading gear down, atl flaps to extend below 400 knot and IFR door open below 400 knot will maintain Takeoff/landing gains. But keep in mind Flaps extended above 240 will start going up and would be fully retracted by 370 knots. This could incur damage to the flaps, flap Integrated Servo Actuator (ISA) or the flap supports.

 

Sorry to bring it back but, I accidentally found out that there's indeed a TEF schedule from an early DFLCS block diagram. It's scheduled as a function of dynamic pressure and is mixed with the output signal from the roll FLCS at SURFACE COMMAND MIXER before it is sent to ISA. Not sure if it's still the case in later blocks.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=239666

(F-16 Digital Flight Control System Functional Block Diagrams. Data obtained from Lt. Bruce Peet, F-16 System Program Office, Wright-Patterson OH.)

 

There's another thing that is suspicious to me. If exceeding 370kts can cause damage to the Flaperon ISA, then the same could happen if a maximum roll is commanded, since the signal from TEF and roll axis is mixed and sent to the same ISA.


Edited by LJQCN101

EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations.

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