Aircraft before the 1993 tech explosion for DCS

F-16C block 30 entered service in 1986 - similar to first Su-27 1985.

It has full installation to use AMRAAM (two targets at once), but it received missiles in 1991.

Test serie of AMRAAM has been produced in 1987, but not used in Desert Storm. Block 40 was also fully AMRAAM ready out of factory before receiving the missiles. (4 targets at once AN/APG-68v)

Block 30 was the most produced F-16C variant and it has the highest thrust to weight ratio, the best climb, acceleration and the best sustained turn rate.

I don't agree. Really don't care for old stuff.

I like modern. Old is obsolete, and for good reason. Tech advances always. And the battlefield is much more complex in the modern day. I like complexity.

F-16C block 30 entered service in 1986 - similar to first Su-27 1985.

It has full installation to use AMRAAM (two targets at once), but it received missiles in 1991.

Test serie of AMRAAM has been produced in 1987, but not used in Desert Storm. Block 40 was also fully AMRAAM ready out of factory before receiving the missiles. (4 targets at once AN/APG-68v)

 

Block 30 was the most produced F-16C variant and it has the highest thrust to weight ratio, the best climb, acceleration and the best sustained turn rate.

 

(F-16 block 60 being significantly heavier but having even more powerfull GE132 could possibly surpass or equal block 30.)

According to this: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article6.html, the original Block 30 did not have AMRAAM capability. Might be wrong though and we do not know what exact Block 30 F-16 we would see.

I don't agree. Really don't care for old stuff.

 

I like modern. Old is obsolete, and for good reason. Tech advances always. And the battlefield is much more complex in the modern day. I like complexity.

Too bad for you DCS cant actually model 90% of a modern battlefield. Thats the point of this thread. Your modern battlefield cant be modeled because its all about EW and sensors, and IADS. NONE of which DCS currently models well, nor IMO will it in the near future.

According to this: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article6.html, the original Block 30 did not have AMRAAM capability. Might be wrong though and we do not know what exact Block 30 F-16 we would see.

30B did though.

What weapon is available depends on missing creator / server owner.

Too bad for you DCS cant actually model 90% of a modern battlefield. Thats the point of this thread. Your modern battlefield cant be modeled because its all about EW and sensors, and IADS. NONE of which DCS currently models well, nor IMO will it in the near future.

I don't care for a battlefield. I'm here for the simulation of a modern fighter jet, not the simulation of a battlefield per se.

I don't care for a battlefield. I'm here for the simulation of a modern fighter jet, not the simulation of a battlefield per se.

But what we have is still obsolete mate, late 90s at most. aim120C5 is 90s weapon so is the AN/APG-68(V)5 radar. On top of that there are quite some functionalities which are not simulated to full functionality, datalink and self defense systems, iff are an examples but there are more. Modern fighter is F-22, F-35, f-16 block 70 with AESA and aim120D and so on.

But what we have is still obsolete mate, late 90s at most. aim120C5 is 90s weapon so is the AN/APG-68(V)5 radar. On top of that there are quite some functionalities which are not simulated to full functionality, datalink and self defense systems, iff are an examples but there are more. Modern fighter is F-22, F-35, f-16 block 70 with AESA and aim120D and so on.

My preference is as modern as it gets within DCS, obviously.

My preference is as modern as it gets within DCS, obviously.

We would all love to be able to fly our favorite modern jet. Unfortunately I have also come to terms of the reality that it is just not that easy for any developer to make a full fidelity simulation of modern military aircraft with classified systems. So I would rather prefer DCS to focus on developing the older jets first for which they can more realistically and easily obtain the necessary licenses. Then if in the mean time they get granted a license to do something more modern they could also also work on that.

I don't care for a battlefield. I'm here for the simulation of a modern fighter jet, not the simulation of a battlefield per se.

What means modern. F/A-18 Hornet has been phased out by the US Navy years ago. And even in 2007 it had been replaced by newer Superhornets in many squadrons.

F-16C block 50 CCIP from 2007? There were F-22 Raptors combat ready in US Air Force at that time.

Both airframes had been designed in 1970s, 45-50 yeras ago. There is no plane with AESA radar in DCS, no stealth aircraft etc. It's not that "modern". It's what is available to model, already non classified, available in public domain.

Every plane in DCS is historical, not modern per se.

What means modern. F/A-18 Hornet has been phased out by the US Navy years ago. And even in 2007 it had been replaced by newer Superhornets in many squadrons.

 

F-16C block 50 CCIP from 2007? There were F-22 Raptors combat ready in US Air Force at that time.

 

Both airframes had been designed in 1970s, 45-50 yeras ago. There is no plane with AESA radar in DCS, no stealth aircraft etc. It's not that "modern". It's what is available to model, already non classified, available in public domain.

 

Every plane in DCS is historical, not modern per se.

modern doesn't have to mean the latest and greatest technology available or even necessarily set in the absolute present day.

IN the 1860s in the us civil war, breach loading weapons even some with metal catridges ammunition existed, as well repeating weapons ( level action) existed, But were not that common. The standard issue weapon during this era were muzzle loading rifled muskets. Such new weapon types didn't become common place standard issue until the following decade.

In ww2 the Germans invented the first assualt rifle, yet the standard issue weapon for Germany and most other nations armies ( with exception of the USA) were still bolt action rifles. the STG was noted in skirmishes, and from a design perspective mattered for what future small arms design would head, but in the grand scheme of war, its impact was minor. With exception of russia Most western countries were slow to appreicate advantages of an interim sized catridge, and ofa selective fire "assault rifle" and still went with the "battle rifle philosophy" post ww2.

As another Jets existed in ww2. Germans were the first to put Jet driven aircraft into combat use with the likes of the Me262, but the standard fighter type for air forces including Germany remained propeller driven aircraft. Jet powered aircraft would not have a chance to proliferate into mainstream use until the early 50s for the Korean conflict. AS a nother example somtimes the equipment utilized is modern ( relative of a time period) but the tactics and doctrine are dated at the start of a conflict, and only after a rude awakening are changes made by military leaders to match the current technology present. ( Crimea, Civil war, and ww1 are good examples o ths)

The same can be made for more modern eras of aviation. So what if the F22 existed in 2007? so few were produced, its an expensive air frame and its a designed as dedicated air superiority . Sure it would be cool to have in DCS, but its actual use in historical conflicts has been nearly non existent. The F16 up until recently was still the US air forces (and tbh still is until more F35 squadrons come about) its primary workhorse fighter, and other gen 4 aircraft like the F15C and F15E Strike Eagle are still in active duty use and are expected to be so well into the future. Wheras the F22 raptor has farted around in circles, the F16 has seen extensive use even into the GWOT. Block 50 we have in DCS is fairly considered "modern" becuase the CCIP program essentially brought vipers to 21st century standards, even if most of the updates are incremental and not groundbreaking big like a new radar type or other. Sure Super Hornets were already around in more significant numbers by 2007, but the first block Super Hornets were really just larger Hornets with longer legs and 2 extra hardpoints for the most part. Block 2's had incremental improvements, and didnt get any major upgrades until AESA radars. Due to developmental problems with software, AESA radars only exited in low rate on a handful of Super bugs for evaluation purposes until Lot 30 of the block 2 production were the first to actually get serviceable AESA radars ( and those were Growlers) and first SH production batch to have them. It then took a number further years to back fit AESA radars for all block 2 LOt 26-29 production already in operational service. The super Hornets produced since lot 30 for the USN , have all been Growlers with the exception of lot 37 and 38 batch which in included a handful of of low rate E' and F's. the F35 is the latest and greatest multi mission stealth , but even that wont replace everything in the Air force or Navy. The F16's will continue to see use with Air National Guard, nor will the F35A replace the Strike Eagle or A10 warthog as initially intended. IN turn the Navy are going to operate Super Hornet's alongside F35C's.

You have to realize that more major changes to the Viper didnt start happening until very recently. Stuff like 3 center MFD, or AESA radar are sets of upgrades that are just happening now for the USAF.just like the F15E strike eagle only a small number have AESA radars ( first batch only delivered for operation use in 2017), and are far from seeing mass proliferation among the Strike Eagle fleets. Stuff like the block 70 Viper are export market only, for nations that either cant afford a true next generation design like the F35, or for nations that USA won't sell the F35 to.

Edit:

would also point out, that the F18C hasn't been retired for "many years"? But only 1.5-2 years at most. And even then its only retired from active duty service, not from Blue Angels or reserve units. The Marine corps for example cant afford to retire the legacy hornet yet because they didn't opt for super hornets nor do they have enough F35B's yet in service. They instead investing money to upgrade Legacy Hornets with AESA radars, the first of which should reach operational service this year.

Too bad for you DCS cant actually model 90% of a modern battlefield. Thats the point of this thread. Your modern battlefield cant be modeled because its all about EW and sensors, and IADS. NONE of which DCS currently models well, nor IMO will it in the near future.

Actually you can model a modern battlefield, just call it it a low intensity "modern" battlefield :megalol:.

In all seriousness though whilst what you state is true, ED wishes is to do a "modern" time period. I know the term can be vague, and relative to a person witnessing events at a certain time frame but the game series began with Flanker and continued to with FC3, and with DCS today.

Remember that the original map and oldest initial campaign for DCS that was intended to be represented was the 2008 Georgian war. The first release of DCS came around not too long afterwards. All other scenarios since ( such as NTTR and Gulf) were also centered with the 21st century, and almost certainly post 2008 in terms of map design. It also appears Syria and Mariana islands in design are also 21st century, if not outright present day (at most only a few years old in terms of intended time frame design)

I dont know about you, but would you call conflicts from just a few years ago not still be considered "modern" relative to present day? Even if you want to go back more than a decade, life in 2008 was not fundamentally different as opposed to today. Although i suppose that an be relative to what part of the world you live in.

Sure Flaming cliffs preceded full on study sim that was DCS , and before that Flanker series, but the aircraft represented there were probably the more modern types that could be simulated during the 90s. In the 90s, the Su27S was still Russians cream of the crop air superiority fighter, as was the F15C for the USA.

This is such an interesting thread and great discussion, makes me really happy for the future of DCS. I hope it goes the way that would appease the majority of the posters here.

This is such an interesting thread and great discussion, makes me really happy for the future of DCS. I hope it goes the way that would appease the majority of the posters here.

I would have hoped for the discussion to evolve more around Gen3 fighters instead of just being another F-16 thread...

I would have hoped for the discussion to evolve more around Gen3 fighters instead of just being another F-16 thread...

I was just happy at the lack of "giv us 22 Raptar" posts.

Well talking about generation 3, there still is alot of cool stuff to be desired. The F-4 of course is one of them. We will get the MiG-23 and already have the Viggen, plus the MiG-21bis is closer to that generation than to gen 2. Wasnt there also someone doing an earlier Mirage? My most wanted aircraft for that time would be the Su-22M4.

Here is a good chart that puts all of the combat aircraft in perspective to their generation. I would like to see the rest of the Gen 3 airplanes come to DCS to complete the set. Then they can start working their way back to Gen 2.

Jeah, still find that Generation table odd. Putting a Gunfighter like the Mig-15 into the same Generation as a Mig-19 with AB, Radar and IR Missiles and Meanwhile Putting the F-5 a whole Generation above the Mig-21. But hey, more older Aircraft are always great. Really loved the Mig-21 and felt like the F-14 was just too "Modern" for my taste, so maybe something in between would be great.

Jeah, still find that Generation table odd. Putting a Gunfighter like the Mig-15 into the same Generation as a Mig-19 with AB, Radar and IR Missiles and Meanwhile Putting the F-5 a whole Generation above the Mig-21. But hey, more older Aircraft are always great. Really loved the Mig-21 and felt like the F-14 was just too "Modern" for my taste, so maybe something in between would be great.

The chart does not seem to be perfect or complete but its the best I have seen as far as layout. Unfortunately the chart is missing several older Naval aircraft like the F-8.

I actually found the F-14B and Viggen to be just right for my taste. The F-14A would probably be ideal for you when ever it gets added.

Actually you can model a modern battlefield, just call it it a low intensity "modern" battlefield :megalol:.

 

 

In all seriousness though whilst what you state is true, ED wishes is to do a "modern" time period. I know the term can be vague, and relative to a person witnessing events at a certain time frame but the game series began with Flanker and continued to with FC3, and with DCS today.

 

Remember that the original map and oldest initial campaign for DCS that was intended to be represented was the 2008 Georgian war. The first release of DCS came around not too long afterwards. All other scenarios since ( such as NTTR and Gulf) were also centered with the 21st century, and almost certainly post 2008 in terms of map design. It also appears Syria and Mariana islands in design are also 21st century, if not outright present day (at most only a few years old in terms of intended time frame design)

 

I dont know about you, but would you call conflicts from just a few years ago not still be considered "modern" relative to present day? Even if you want to go back more than a decade, life in 2008 was not fundamentally different as opposed to today. Although i suppose that an be relative to what part of the world you live in.

 

 

Sure Flaming cliffs preceded full on study sim that was DCS , and before that Flanker series, but the aircraft represented there were probably the more modern types that could be simulated during the 90s. In the 90s, the Su27S was still Russians cream of the crop air superiority fighter, as was the F15C for the USA.

If thats the benchmark for "modern" they should change the name to Digital Mud Hut Bombing Simulator (DMHBS) or something similar in that case, since thats roughly what "low intensity" conflicts we are capable of simulating. I do realize that ED's hope is to do better, and I fully understand why thats hard, but if you are selling DCS as ultra realistic, and then you don't model EW for example, its not even remotely realistic. EW shapes tactics and battlespace, C4I shapes the modern battlefield etc. Both are woefully undermodeled or not modeled at all in DCS.

I think if they focused on a simpler "era" first and used that as a foundation the overall sim would be better, which is why I heartily endorse earlier eras. Plus I think they could be alot more fun (WVR dogfights vs BVR fox 3 lobfests). And really dodging SA2/3's with either no or crappy RWR's would be just as exciting as dodging SA10's with a good RWR IMO.

I also view a good part of the DCS customer base wanting the "I win" button, rather than developing skills, which I suppose favors modern aircraft.

Jeah, still find that Generation table odd. Putting a Gunfighter like the Mig-15 into the same Generation as a Mig-19 with AB, Radar and IR Missiles and Meanwhile Putting the F-5 a whole Generation above the Mig-21. But hey, more older Aircraft are always great. Really loved the Mig-21 and felt like the F-14 was just too "Modern" for my taste, so maybe something in between would be great.

IDK, Its roughly accurate IMO. I think the hard part is to differentiate different upgrade models. The original Mig-19 was a pure gunfighter hence gen1, and later evolved to a so/so gen2. I do find the F5 as an odd choice to put in Gen3, but I could see it for the later upgraded F5E's, just like the the mig21 which again, started as a straight gen2 daylight fighter, and then morphed into something more like gen3 (or now even Gen4) with avionics/radar upgrades. Though I think its criminal to put the F4 in the gen2 category even the early ones.

And I really think an F4E/Mig23 would probably be "THE" blue/red fighter combo to bring balance to cold war DCS.

I don't care for a battlefield. I'm here for the simulation of a modern fighter jet, not the simulation of a battlefield per se.

Are you flying airshows? Because your statement makes no sense to me otherwise.

I was just happy at the lack of "giv us 22 Raptar" posts.

Yeah but thats maybe what the big ED "milestone" is going to be... (I hope to god not actually).

I'm curious why they'd place Mirage 2000 in the 3rd gen group?