Dogfighting in the F-14

Ever watched the pentagon wars on HBO? I highly recommend the episode on the Bradley.

You will never question the intended role

Of an airframe again.....

As an Abrams tank commander,, not ashamed to admit Bradleys had more tank kills in Desert Storm.

As an Abrams tank commander,, not ashamed to admit Bradleys had more tank kills in Desert Storm.

If only they would have thought to put room for 12 troops in the back of an Abrams.

Big miss in my eyes.....

 

this graph was done by pamenchan, comparing turn rates of different dcs modules at sea level. That is how the game worked that testing day. Only thing that is wrong in that chart is the 9g limit of the f14b, but that is the way gamers fly that ship anyway.

In dcs, she turns the best at sea level at all speeds... that is a fact.

 

Is this accurate to rw? I do not know any doghouse of a F14 at sea level, so I canˋt really comment on that. If that is accurate, she benefits from low (and clean) flying by far the most, since at higher altitude she is not dominating the dogfight skies at all

Actually........we have a sea level chart. I mean, i have it, so i assume you have it too (it's been in circulation for some time now). It is a bit "buried" in the manual though.

However, what we don't have is a chart of a clean F-14, with 20% internal fuel. In that configuration, apparently even the A's were beasts, especially down low. I mean......with the aero data available, one can actually compute the STR's for that actual loadout, but it is a bothersome task. Even with calculation aids. We just gonna have to trust ED and HB on this one.

If that plot is totally false as you say, how can the fm of dcs f14b be the most accurate in dcs as you claim?

 

this graph was done by pamenchan, comparing turn rates of different dcs modules at sea level. That is how the game worked that testing day. Only thing that is wrong in that chart is the 9g limit of the f14b, but that is the way gamers fly that ship anyway.

In dcs, she turns the best at sea level at all speeds... that is a fact.

 

Is this accurate to rw? I do not know any doghouse of a F14 at sea level, so I canˋt really comment on that. If that is accurate, she benefits from low (and clean) flying by far the most, since at higher altitude she is not dominating the dogfight skies at all

I know it's false because I rigorously tested it myself, and above 0.74 mach the F-14 does not beat the F-15, F-16 or F/A-18 in STR in DCS. It only beats them below this speed, just as it should as pr. the real life performance charts.

Also the F-14 doesn't have a G limiter, so testing it to 9 G's isn't showcasing a flaw (the real airplane was stress tested to 13.3 G and had the same ultimate load factor as the F-15).

That said a combat loaded F-14 will not sustain 9 G in DCS or RL, an F-16 or F-15 will. A clean F-14 at 25% fuel, maybe, but in real life you were not ever going to see an F-14 in that configuration in combat anyway.

I know it's false because I rigorously tested it myself, and above 0.74 mach the F-14 does not beat the F-15, F-16 or F/A-18 in STR in DCS. It only beats them below this speed, just as it should as pr. the real life performance charts.

 

Also the F-14 doesn't have a G limiter, so testing it to 9 G's isn't showcasing a flaw (the real airplane was stress tested to 13.3 G and had the same ultimate load factor as the F-15).

 

That said a combat loaded F-14 will not sustain 9 G in DCS or RL, an F-16 or F-15 will. A clean F-14 at 25% fuel, maybe, but in real life you were not ever going to see an F-14 in that configuration in combat anyway.

I know your mindset. But let me tell you that every plane has a g-limiter.

Newer ones have computers, older or simpler planes do have a pilot. He is responsible for safety and operations according the books, period. Guess why f14 doghouse plot only show graphs up to 6.x g?

Hm, you claim the graph of pamenchan is wrong and on the other hand you admit not to know if at tested parameters (25% fuel, sl, di=0) she could sustain 9g? Guess your a good pilot then and stay within g-limits... well done.

@ dalan:

I do trust the devs like you do, they have the knowledge, the programs and the help of rw pilots and experts to do a good fm. That is their job, and they do great.

What I do not appreciate is the mindset of some guys who think a g-limit is just a joke, or politics. We know all their excuses... Guess we will hear some of them again very soon ;)

I love the f14, its my favorite plane. If properly flown (g<6.5), she still would do great and her best sustained turn rate at sl would excel. There is really no need for over-g-ing the airframe.

Nope, I do not have a f14 sl doghouse plot...

I know your mindset. But let me tell you that every plane has a g-limiter.

Newer ones have computers, older or simpler planes do have a pilot. He is responsible for safety and operations according the books, period. Guess why f14 doghouse plot only show graphs up to 6.x g?

Because it was expensive to maintain the F-14 fleet to the point where the doghouse plot could be extended to higher G-loads. Nothing to do with the capability of the airframe.

Because it was expensive to maintain the F-14 fleet to the point where the doghouse plot could be extended to higher G-loads. Nothing to do with the capability of the airframe.

If g wouldn’t have an impact on the aircraft and its systems (and on lifetime, on operational readiness / maintenance and costs) why put a 6.5 limit into the books?

It is not relevant if parts of the aircraft are 13g capable or not, it is about the whole system. As rw pilot you do not argue about the manual, you are trained to follow the rules.

Furthermore, as best str is at ~M 05 and corner even lower, there is no need to exceed 6.5 g in almost every situation. This limit does not hurt the performance that much, those manual guys were smart.

And yes, your adversary is limited too.

Because it's not a simple yes or no question, whether "there is impact to the system" as you put it, or there isn't. Any type of operation requires some amount of maintenance; the more stressful the operation, the more (and more expensive) maintenance is needed, and vice versa.

The point is, 6.5g was a good middle ground between having a capable platform and having that platform survive the abuse for as long as possible while minimising costs. It is entirely unrelated to what that same platform may or may not be capable of, in an individual sortie, in a situation in which maintenance is utterly irrelevant, which is what we have in DCS.

Besides, going by your reasoning, there's no reason to ever turn above Mach 0.5 (nevermind the fact that corner speed by definition is the speed at which you have max instantaneous g available), which is obviously wrong.

Peak G:10.2

:pilotfly:

 

@ dalan:

I do trust the devs like you do, they have the knowledge, the programs and the help of rw pilots and experts to do a good fm. That is their job, and they do great.

 

What I do not appreciate is the mindset of some guys who think a g-limit is just a joke, or politics. We know all their excuses... Guess we will hear some of them again very soon ;)

I love the f14, its my favorite plane. If properly flown (g<6.5), she still would do great and her best sustained turn rate at sl would excel. There is really no need for over-g-ing the airframe.

 

I know what you mean and i agree that g-limitations aren't supposed to be taken likely. However DCS isn't equivalent to real life operations. Let me try and illustrate why through an example.

Let's say it's 1978 and you are given a brand new, factory clean F-14. The Navy, being short on budget has planned to make these babies last 6000 flight hours or 15 years, or what ever comes first. In order to reach those numbers, the Navy has also instituted a 6.5g peace time operational limit. Now you as a young and eager space cadet may think, well to hell with the limit. This is a brand new plane and i can push it all the way to 9 as much as i like. And you can. And it most likely won't break. But what you have no done, is shorten the life span of that plane, and worse, potentially threatened the jock who will ride that plane 10-15 years from now, when it's closer to those 6000 planned flight hours. And no sane pilot would do that.

The second example. Let's now imagine its actually 1993. And you are in that same jet. It's been up for 15 years. It has accounted for numerous carrier landings. And even worse, the Navy (because of more budget cuts) has decided to extend it's service life to 8000 flight hours or 20 years, or whichever comes first. Now, if you weren't hesitant to pull 9 g's in it in the 70's, you most definitely will be in the 90's. You have very little idea who drove that thing before you in the past couple of decades. You have no idea how many flight hours does it have left in it. So of course you'll do your best not to try your luck, or the luck of the guys-girls who have to spend the next 2000 hours in it.

Do the above examples mean you are never, ever going to pull 9 g's in it? Heck now. It means that under normal circumstances (routine operations, training etc) you won't. But if you in a live ammo shootout with hostiles? Well.....let's but it this way...... using it as a 9g' plane may mean making a 4000 hours plane instead of 6000 hours one. But using it as a 6,5 g may mean making it a 0 hour plane from a 6000 hour one. The choice here is clear.

Now, the main difference between DCS and real world is that the average sim jock, ranks up more combat sorties that end up with live ammo exchanges over a weekend, then most WW2 pilots did over the course of the entire war. Especially on PvP MP public servers, literally every fight is THE fight. Almost always only one of the guys makes it back home and sometimes they both don't. Every sortie is a fight to the death. There are no 4 hours flights over missions over blue waters with nothing but radio chatter. Or if there were, there will be no need to pull any g's. There is no what if someone flies this same jet 10 years from now. DCS doesn't account for cumulative air frame fatigue. All these "properties" of virtual aviation make such limitations feel rather trivial. Say you have a MiG-29 on your tail.....and you are at 450 knots. What you gonna do? Slow down to 350 before you break? Or pull a 6 g turn and pray for the best? Or are you gonna jink for you life? Even in real life i think the answer is clear, let alone in DCS....

Can these restrictions work in a simulated environment? Of course, but only if you fly more structured instances. Like if you are a part of a squadron and you do training sorties. You make part of the ROI to be maintaining the g limitations. Or, if you guys role play air frame fatigue and ground over-g'd planes for inspection after each sortie. But in a free for all environment against random dudes from across the planet? I just don't see it happening.

 

Nope, I do not have a f14 sl doghouse plot...

If you already have some of the performance manuals, PM me. i'll tell you how to dig it up from there. :thumbup:

I know your mindset. But let me tell you that every plane has a g-limiter.

Newer ones have computers, older or simpler planes do have a pilot. He is responsible for safety and operations according the books, period. Guess why f14 doghouse plot only show graphs up to 6.x g?

 

Hm, you claim the graph of pamenchan is wrong and on the other hand you admit not to know if at tested parameters (25% fuel, sl, di=0) she could sustain 9g? Guess your a good pilot then and stay within g-limits... well done.

I claim it is giving a very false picture, as in reality (& DCS) the F-15 & F-16 will both be able to sustain a higher rate/G at speeds above mach 0.74 & 0.70 respectively than the F-14 in any realistic load out configuration.

Completely clean at 25% fuel and @ SL is just not ever going to happen in anything but a guns only airquake server.

You're not claiming an F-16 with full load and external tanks is pulling more than 4-5G are you?

You're not claiming an F-16 with full load and external tanks is pulling more than 4-5G are you?

If you're talking to me, no.

For a realistic F-16 load out I am talking e.g. 4x AAMs & 50% internal fuel or more. No external fuel tanks as these would normally be punched away if the situation is a high stakes WVR dogfight. So CAT I and the full 9.3 G's that the DFLCS allows for.

In such configuration the F-16 & F-15 both have a higher sustained rate (and thus G) than the F-14 above mach 0.74, and the reverse below that. Max sustained rate however is very similar, the F-14 just achieves it at a noticably lower speed and thus G & radius, meaning it can sustain a tighter turn than the other two, which gives the F-14 a noticable advantage in an angles fight that is kept strictly horizontal.

Try out turning a Mirage and get back to me. That thing is a UFO. Can't fly no where near as slow as that and still turn in the Tomcat. Not saying you can't win against the thing. Just got to be smart about it.

Actually do hate that discussion. Obviously too different mindsets...

1: my dcs f14 does not need maintenance, so let us skip the ‚trivial‘ or somehow ‘academic’ g-limits...

Let us enjoy its strengh and skip its weaknesses. Who cares about the nature of that bird in the sim?

Where is the end of that mindset? My f14 does not need a rwy neither, let us take off from the ramp or taxiway? Nope.

2: If it is about death or alive, you would over-g your plane in rw (as in dcs) if you have a mig 29 at your 6.

Probably. But how did she get there?

What options do I have to bring back my plane safe so that we can fight the next day? Extend and run the 29 out of fuel? Pull 11g? White flag?

This sim is not about death or alive. If I get shot, I go up again and try to do better, not to pull even more g. If I have to over-g, I probably messed up before.

If somebody shoots me after over-g-ing his airframe, I think: Poor guy, I do not want to be in the room he gets his debriefing....

3: My f14 is less competitive with the ‘academic’ 6.5 g-limit, its itr / corner speed is reduced compared to my freestyle g-limit.

Sure, but it is still one of the best. No need to ignore its limits. I do not think it is accurate to pull like a bull and skip the limit.

Why follow rules and procedures?

It‘s the challenge to fly like they had to fly. Coordinated turns, controlled pull to the g-limit and simultaneously fight the bandit. World class. Probably not manageable for every simmer, but great if one tries at least.

We have accurate pits, systems, fm and airframes, nice maps and servers.

Perfect basis. Accurate flying is up to us.

I was a flying props and jets rl decades ago. I never ever would have risked to over-g a plane. Doing it would probably end my dream. Every single mission was a test. For every maneuver we had some small margin and going beyond meant you failed. And you were not allowed to fail many times. Mil flying is about discipline, rules, procedures and precision. They let you fly their most expensive tools, do not them let them down.

I like flying in dcs without all that rw mental pressure for perfection. Nobody blames you for exceeding the +-100ft altitude margin in a 5g horizontal turn or if you are late on gear down. Almost freestyle. But I try not to brake rules and procedures, not on purpose.

Actually do hate that discussion. Obviously too different mindsets...

 

 

2: If it is about death or alive, you would over-g your plane in rw (as in dcs) if you have a mig 29 at your 6.

Probably. But how did she get there?

What options do I have to bring back my plane safe so that we can fight the next day? Extend and run the 29 out of fuel? Pull 11g? White flag?

This sim is not about death or alive. If I get shot, I go up again and try to do better, not to pull even more g. If I have to over-g, I probably messed up before.

 

If somebody shoots me after over-g-ing his airframe, I think: Poor guy, I do not want to be in the room he gets his debriefing....

I'm sorry, but i must disagree with this statement completely. Unless in a strictly training environment, every fight in DCS is a matter of life and death. Unless you guys fly with training missiles strapped on that is. And why does it matter how did that MiG got on your six? You'll have plenty of time to think about that back in base. Right now you need to stay alive. Run it out of fuel? How? By extending in full burner and inviting a Fox 2? Or waving a white flag? Good luck with that on a public server. How about evading a missile shot? Will that be done at a 6.5 g as well? Because some chart on the manual says so?

This sim isn't about what you make it out to be. It's about what every individual user makes it out to be. They all payed the same price for it and they all get to use it the way they see fit. Now as i mentioned i don't think routinely over stressing the plane should be a thing. But DCS isn't routine. It doesn't simulate routine. There is nothing routine about being shot at. The only way to make it routine is to enforce that on yourself.

Which finally leads me to.......I can't tell you how a CO will respond to the guy that shoots a bandit by OG-ing his plane. I'm not in the armed forces. I don't know how rules and procedures apply when under fire. But i do know how that pilot's wife will respond. And i can tell you for certain, she'll be glad he's home alive and not in a POW camp, or worse, scattered around the planet. Now you try to make the argument that the sim doesn't really get you killed, so you have no excuse to break procedure........ Well, it's certainly within your rights as a user to perceive it and use it that way. But in that case, you are flying it even less authentically and i dare say more meta, then the others do. Or at best, just as bad as they do.

You want to fly authentically? Delete DCS the next time your pilot dies in it. An never install it again. Or abstain several years or months from it if your pilot ejects above enemy lines. I'm sure people would become much less prone to risky tactics if they played-flied DCS this way. I know, i would. But i also know it's not up to me to tell the others how they should enjoy the product that they themselves poured their hard earned money into :thumbup:

I get you mindset,thanks. Wouldn’t it the other way around? guys thinking it is about death or alive should stay away from dcs once they were killed according to your strange reasoning?

A kill in dcs is a simulated kill and I am happy to go up again and try to keep that guy away from my six, I try to fight a better fight, that is what training/simulation is good for. This guy shares the same hobby, he is not my enemy, he is my partner who I treat with respect.

With that mindset, yes, I can fly quite authentically.

And that is what rw pilots do too. They train like they fight. They train not to over-g, so that they wouldn’t need to pull like bulls in war times.

I get you mindset,thanks. Wouldn’t it the other way around? guys thinking it is about death or alive should stay away from dcs once they were killed according to your strange reasoning?

 

A kill in dcs is a simulated kill and I am happy to go up again and try to keep that guy away from my six, I try to fight a better fight, that is what training/simulation is good for. This guy shares the same hobby, he is not my enemy, he is my partner who I treat with respect.

With that mindset, yes, I can fly quite authentically.

 

And that is what rw pilots do too. They train like they fight. They train not to over-g, so that they wouldn’t need to pull like bulls in war times.

I have to disagree.

It’s a common practice to put into service a fighter with a G limit, then lower the G limit for peace time training to enhance airframe service life.

But if you are engaged in combat, you do what you have to and peace time training rule doesn’t matter much.

It’s like over-G to avoid ground collision or dropping external tanks to evade SAM or engage in dogfight.

So yeah, maybe you screwed up to get there, but you do what you need to do to live and fight another day.

I

So yeah, maybe you screwed up to get there, but you do what you need to do to live and fight another day.

right. But even in war times it is the last option, not mindset

Yes, but you have to understand that 6.5G is peace time rule to enhance airframe service life.

Not really relevant in war time.

Yet, I would agree that 9G sustained turn may not be the bread and butter of F-14.

The A-model was also underpowered for maneuvering fights with an approximately 0.67:1 thrust to weight ratio. Furthermore, we had a 6.5 G limit, though there was no black box that would tell on you, so we often went well beyond 7 G.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27889/confessions-of-a-navy-f-14-fleet-pilot-turned-f-5-aggressor

Almost every video/podcast of actual ex-F-14 pilots training ACM they comment on how they over-G the jet - every one! The last one said he got an award for a 12G guns kill in training! I think Oki mentioned 11G.

I get you mindset,thanks. Wouldn’t it the other way around? guys thinking it is about death or alive should stay away from dcs once they were killed according to your strange reasoning?

 

A kill in dcs is a simulated kill and I am happy to go up again and try to keep that guy away from my six, I try to fight a better fight, that is what training/simulation is good for. This guy shares the same hobby, he is not my enemy, he is my partner who I treat with respect.

With that mindset, yes, I can fly quite authentically.

 

And that is what rw pilots do too. They train like they fight. They train not to over-g, so that they wouldn’t need to pull like bulls in war times.

Well, in such a case, maybe existence of training servers would remedy the situation? Where people would go to train according to actual by-the-books procedure?

And not just over-g. In such a case, you should also observe the hard and the soft deck. So no going into the weeds to employ terrain masking. Also, maintaining of strict BFM bubble, so no closer then (if memory serves 1000ft) shots or maneuvers to the other plane? I'm sure there is more.

Well, in such a case, maybe existence of training servers would remedy the situation? Where people would go to train according to actual by-the-books procedure?

 

And not just over-g. In such a case, you should also observe the hard and the soft deck. So no going into the weeds to employ terrain masking. Also, maintaining of strict BFM bubble, so no closer then (if memory serves 1000ft) shots or maneuvers to the other plane? I'm sure there is more.

here

8.5G and roll rate 60°/s， crazying.

:pilotfly:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4191295&postcount=35

Almost every video/podcast of actual ex-F-14 pilots training ACM they comment on how they over-G the jet - every one! The last one said he got an award for a 12G guns kill in training! I think Oki mentioned 11G.

How do they measure it over 10gs? The gauge only goes to 10 doesnt it?