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Old 09-22-2018, 10:02 AM   #1
Nealius
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Default How do you land this thing?

So, after about a week of flying the Sabre, I still cannot get a decent landing out of her. Even the Spitfire is easier.

My first problem is pattern work: The nose is all over the damn place. It seems to have a very unstable pitch axis, trim is very sluggish, and once flaps are down beyond a third, the trim doesn't seem to help much at all.

On final approach, everything is fine. On a (what appears to be) 3° glideslope, 130-ish kts.

Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110kts. I pull back the stick, nose comes up, descent rate doesn't decrease. I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm, bouncing and nearly tipping a wing, or even having a tail strike.

This is with no stores, about 1000lbs of fuel, 2/3 to full flaps, boards out. How do you grease the tires on this jet?
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:05 AM   #2
razo+r
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This video might help you.

https://youtu.be/ouXwr8Su37o?t=378

So, maybe try a bit more speed on approach.
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Old 09-22-2018, 05:09 PM   #3
flyingscotsman
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Could it be that your axes are not set right in controls?
When I start with any new aircraft I find I have to delete any extra axes that my set up has put in by default. I.E. my pedal's affect other axes, turn right rudder and my throttle goes mad, my toe brakes affect the flaps etc, so could I suggest a quick look in there to make sure what should be in control, is.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:54 AM   #4
Nealius
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Axes are fine, I cleared those out and set everything up before I even got in the cockpit.
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:15 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealius View Post
Crossing the threshold is where I get the second problem. Cut throttle to idle, as I get closer to touchdown I try to flare out, aiming for 110kts.
This is your problem. Follow the manual: Don't cut the throttle early and don't flare it like a WWII bird.

Cross the threshold under power and fly yourself into a nice level 2-3 feet off the runway then chop the throttle.
Don't flare to land. It'll just settle down on its own and you just need to apply the bare minimum stick back to keep the nosewheel off the deck.
Once it's two wheels on the deck, then pull back to aerobrake.

Quote:
...I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm...
Forward speed = lift. You've already killed the throttle so pulling back is just putting you into a stall.
It's counter-intuitive, but if you want to slow the rate of descent when at low power or speed, nose down to pick up forward speed and pull level. Add throttle when needed.

Last edited by Buzzles; 09-23-2018 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 05:21 AM   #6
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Always good to have kneeboard reference for speeds, rpm, etc. Chuck's guides are essential if you are switching up between aircraft.

If you can land a Spittie, you shouldn't be having a problem.

Do you use airbrake? Proper landing configuration is to hold the recommend pattern and approach speeds with airbrake. If you need to go around close it up and slowly increase throttle.

Make sure you have the trim set for take off and landing configuration. The light will blink on the dash when the pitch and roll are in proper range.

The previous poster was spot on, not much to add. Just practice a good steady gliding descent. The landing gear is pretty tough, she can handle an imperfect flare. I don't usually cut to idle till touchdown. Even then, you don't really have to. You have to spool her back up to ~65% anyway to taxi, depending on fuel weight remaining. She's lighter than when you left. Cutting to idle and wheelbrakes just help slow down faster. I rely more on wheel brakes for yaw than rudder after touchdown. You lose rudder authority pretty quickly as speed bleeds off.

Once you get her on the ground consistently and safely you can practice touch and gos with aerobraking. It's fun and makes you feel special. Looks cool on recordings too.

Remember, you're in a nice bubble canopy on the nose of the aircraft, not buried in the fuselage like the Spit. The perspective will be a bit different, you'll be able to see your touchdown point. I keep the view shift off in the options and just raise the seat a little.
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealius View Post
I pull back the stick, nose comes up, descent rate doesn't decrease. I pull harder, nose goes higher, descent rate still won't decrease, and I smack the tarmac at -500fpm, bouncing and nearly tipping a wing, or even having a tail strike.
Pulling back is going to increase your descent rate at low speeds, you need power to reduce rate of decent in the F86.
The Spitfire is an odd bird, in that it has massive wings and is very "floaty". The sabre not. The Sabre has tiny wings that generate F-all lift, especially at low speed whe compared to the spitfire.

Also, the attitude for landing the Sabre is completely different from the spitfire. The spitfire is generally landed with a nose slightly above level, in order to get the main gear down and provide the right AoA so that the tail-wheel will settle.
The Sabre doesn't have a tail-wheel, but a nose wheel. You can land it in a much more "level" attitude. When first trying this, if you are used to the spitfire, it might feel like you are learning forward too much in the Sabre, as though you would prop-strike (if it had a prop). Don't worry though.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:10 PM   #8
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I have always found the Sabre is easiest aircraft I own to land.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philstyle View Post
Pulling back is going to increase your descent rate at low speeds, you need power to reduce rate of decent in the F86.
The Spitfire is an odd bird, in that it has massive wings and is very "floaty". The sabre not. The Sabre has tiny wings that generate F-all lift, especially at low speed whe compared to the spitfire.

Also, the attitude for landing the Sabre is completely different from the spitfire. The spitfire is generally landed with a nose slightly above level, in order to get the main gear down and provide the right AoA so that the tail-wheel will settle.
The Sabre doesn't have a tail-wheel, but a nose wheel. You can land it in a much more "level" attitude.
If the ROD increases when you are pulling back on the stick you are on the backside of the drag/power curve.

Btw, for a jetfighter the F-86F has a rather big wing (and the same wing loading as a Bf-109G)

If the approach speed is correct the ROD will decrease when you pull back on the stick and you shouldn't need any thrust to land/flare the F-86.

The RW manuals mentions to reduce thrust when landing is assured and that a full stall landing isn't recommended because the aft section of fuselage would drag.

So a noticeable flare at idle thrust and a marked nose up attitude should be possible and the target.

Looks like the approach speed is simply way too low.

The RW F-86F manuals mentions a final approach speed of 145kts and a touchdown speed of 120kts.
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:04 AM   #10
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The 135kts vs. 145kts / 110kts vs. 120kts must be a slat vs. non-slat airframe. I took the 135/110kts figure from a RW diagram on Chuck's guide, which I believe is for a Sabre with slats.
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