Air combat maneuvers move and rudder!!

Does air combat maneuvers moves require rudders input to some degree to perform the move? For example the rolling scissor move or flat scissor or other combat maneuvers moves. if not so to what degree is rudder required during flying rather than that of using it during cross wind adjustment ?? I only fly F15 and Su 27

When im being chased by another fighter its very hard to break out from him using Roll and Pitch so is that because I lack Rudder input .

Reason im asking is because I have the Warthog joystick and doesn’t have twist axis so im debating whether I need rudder or not ? I know I need it to some degree but im just trying to justify spending 200 + $ on a rudder.

You don't plan on flying any of the older WWII modules, or any Helicopters??

You don't plan on flying any of the older WWII modules, or any Helicopters??

no not even once , im all for modern fighter

Then you have your answer. I too would be wary of spending 200$ on equipment which I would hardly use. However I do use them in the modern fighters on crosswind approaches, as well as when performing aggressive High G barrel rolls, or basically whenever I want to assist the ailerons in rolling the fighter. It's your call if you find any of that useful. They are also basically necessary when recovering from any number of stalled/spin situations.

Basically if you don't care about landing the plane, or recovering from a terrible spin. You don't need them ;)

Then you have your answer. I too would be wary of spending 200$ on equipment which I would hardly use. However I do use them in the modern fighters on crosswind approaches, as well as when performing aggressive High G barrel rolls, or basically whenever I want to assist the ailerons in rolling the fighter. It's your call if you find any of that useful. They are also basically necessary when recovering from any number of stalled/spin situations.

 

Basically if you don't care about landing the plane, or recovering from a terrible spin. You don't need them ;)

So I gather from this that its required to perform Maneuvers such as the barrel roll and without it its hard to some extent to perform such maneuvers. If so then I do need it .

Have you tried putting the rudder axis on the throttle slider? I never tried it, but I remember hearing of some people that did.

Have you tried putting the rudder axis on the throttle slider? I never tried it, but I remember hearing of some people that did.

No I didn’t want to try it because it feels awkward , My brain will get confused because it has settled itself that its used as throttle control plus I have each slider mapped to right and left engine . I can get the Rudder its no problem actually I have the VKB T-rudder right now on the purchase page I just wanted to make sure that it will not sit collecting dust and I will actually use it .

You can also map the rudder to the keyboard (that will take away from the HOTAS concept).

I've also found that I use the rudder quite a bit more now that I'm learning the A-10. Also your level of immersion comes into play. With that in mind, yes some ACMs require rudder input.

 

With that in mind, yes some ACMs require rudder input.

Thats the answer i was looking for . I dont want to map the input to any thing i just wanted to make sure before i order it that its a necessary control like other things.

Strictly speaking, rudders are necessary to get 100% out of an aircraft, but you can get away without them in a modern fighter. Pitch and roll gets you 90-95%. The biggest use of rudder for me is during high AoA maneuvers, which I try to avoid for the most part.

I don't think rudder pedals or twist stick will help you get away from an aircraft chasing you very often.

Since you are a modern fighter guy (as am I) the investment will certainly be worth is once the F-18 and F-14 are rolled out to DCS. I personally do not have them; I use the twist on stick (giggity) but that doesn't mean they are not on list at some point in the future.

Here's a good read on ACM/BFM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

thank you guys for your inputs , i will get the VKB T-Rudder its by far my best option after the crosswind one which is above my budget . the only downside of the T-Rudder is it dont have toe brake axis .saitek combat pro has the toe brake but it looks rubbish to me so i will go with the better quality but no toe brake rather than shitty quality

I was happy with the twist stick for a long time, but as I was getting more into the sim, and as my flying skills improved (at least I hope so :D), the lack of proper ruder pedals became more and more limiting. So I ordered the Crosswinds...

I was happy with the twist stick for a long time, but as I was getting more into the sim, and as my flying skills improved (at least I hope so :D), the lack of proper ruder pedals became more and more limiting. So I ordered the Crosswinds...

I would love to get the crosswind but 2 things sat me back from ordering it, one is that i would have to wait till January 2016 , two is the price is a i bit high than what i would spend on a rudder pedal. i read people's review of the T-rudder as well as simHQ review and its a good one , One thing i like the most about the T-rudder is that all review said that its not bulky and this alone is very important to me . i already placed the order so i will give my opinion on it once i try it .

I hesitated for a long time just like you simo1000rr for the same reasons but I'd say that the price of the Crosswinds is a about spot on for what you get for the money. Yes, they are expensive just like the TM HOTAS Warthog but they are also very good. Customizable, precise and sturdy. Well worth the pricetag and I don't regret getting them.

I would love to get the crosswind but 2 things sat me back from ordering it, one is that i would have to wait till January 2016 , two is the price is a i bit high than what i would spend on a rudder pedal. i read people's review of the T-rudder as well as simHQ review and its a good one , One thing i like the most about the T-rudder is that all review said that its not bulky and this alone is very important to me . i already placed the order so i will give my opinion on it once i try it .

Mine will arrive in January :D, so yeah it's a bit of a long wait, but its getting closer. Bulkiness and the lack of space under my desk was my concern too, but I did the measuring and found that they should fit without problems (I also have a plan B in case my measurements were wrong :smartass:).

As for the price, if someone would have told me a year ago that the most expensive piece of my PC hardware would be rudder pedals, I'd call him a lunatic :D. I'm sure it will be worth it!

T-rudder seem to be high quality too.

Mine will arrive in January :D, so yeah it's a bit of a long wait, but its getting closer.

Congrats! :thumbup:

Jan is not that long away.

Mine are in transit now, just leaving the shipping point.

So I gather from this that its required to perform Maneuvers such as the barrel roll and without it its hard to some extent to perform such maneuvers. If so then I do need it .

Not quite. Rudder is important in high AoA situations, where ailerons won't give you roll, but rudders will.

That's the very very basic gist of it. There are other things you use rudders for of course, including directional control on the ground and on approach.

In general straight forward flight you won't touch them, and you won't need them for the majority of air to air combat maneuvers.

If you get the chance,go watch the history channel..They have a show called dogfights and they talk with pilots from different eras abouth their shoot downs..Sometimes they talk specificly about what imputs they used for specific moves..Oh its on youtube and dvds to..Even if you learn nothing its still fun to watch..

I remember some ww2 pilots discussing the use of rudders in unique moves and even some phantom pilots of nam era..

SIMO1000rr..Dont buy second rate peddles....Hang tight and save for the crosswinds..Try no coffees or smokes or pizzas for a time..

Im guessing you have either a honda or beemer so would you use 2nd rate fuel or a cheap chinese tire??

I finally said eff it myself..I got dcs and a cpl modules but rarely touched it,so not long ago i placed my crosswind order(shipping expected next month)bought a tm warthog and a nice dxracer king series chair..Im goin balls in when im not truckin or carvin corners on my zx10.

I find rudder are very important even in basic maneuvering. I use them on every turn, I'm far more accurate in my turns. It took me a bit to get the hang of it. A tip for you, when looking at the ADI that ball under it you want to keep that in the center. Just like a level. it sounds weird but, the way you do it is to push the rudder peddle the ball falls to. So if you make a left turn you use left rudder and you'll keep the ball in the center.

SIMO1000rr..Dont buy second rate peddles....Hang tight and save for the crosswinds..Try no coffees or smokes or pizzas for a time..

Im guessing you have either a honda or beemer so would you use 2nd rate fuel or a cheap chinese tire??

 

I finally said eff it myself..I got dcs and a cpl modules but rarely touched it,so not long ago i placed my crosswind order(shipping expected next month)bought a tm warthog and a nice dxracer king series chair..Im goin balls in when im not truckin or carvin corners on my zx10.

Thank you mate for your advice but its late I have already ordered the VKB T-Rudder It’s by far of the same quality as the crosswind , all metal parts with very high accuracy according to SimHQ review and other reviews on the internet . As I mentioned earlier that the only down side of it is that it lack toe brake which I will assign to a button. I Personally don’t think that the T-rudder is a second rate pedal I think its of a top quality just behind the crosswind .

Have you tried putting the rudder axis on the throttle slider? I never tried it, but I remember hearing of some people that did.

I use to do this before I broke down and got pedals. It's very hard on your wrist, even in modern fighters.

Does air combat maneuvers moves require rudders input to some degree to perform the move? For example the rolling scissor move or flat scissor or other combat maneuvers moves. if not so to what degree is rudder required during flying rather than that of using it during cross wind adjustment ?? I only fly F15 and Su 27

When im being chased by another fighter its very hard to break out from him using Roll and Pitch so is that because I lack Rudder input .

Reason im asking is because I have the Warthog joystick and doesn’t have twist axis so im debating whether I need rudder or not ? I know I need it to some degree but im just trying to justify spending 200 + $ on a rudder.

Regarding F-15C and SU27, yes the rudders can make a difference in a dogfight in the low speed fight the rudder in the latest F-15C PFM will help you in a low speed roll situation to roll the aircraft where aileron input is less effective the rudders do the job. Just remember to centre them or you'll find yourself dogfighting with the FPM to one side lol while trying to use the guns. Situations where this can happen is going vertical where you lose speed but are still keen on the kill of a Mig and need a little rudder. No doubt some would say its a bad idea to lose all that energy and wind up in that situation in the first place but some times when the fight goes up you can get away with it. Both F-15C and SU27 have quite big rudders so the pedals will help.:thumbup:

Does air combat maneuvers moves require rudders input to some degree to perform the move? For example the rolling scissor move or flat scissor or other combat maneuvers moves. if not so to what degree is rudder required during flying rather than that of using it during cross wind adjustment ?? I only fly F15 and Su 27

When im being chased by another fighter its very hard to break out from him using Roll and Pitch so is that because I lack Rudder input .

Reason im asking is because I have the Warthog joystick and doesn’t have twist axis so im debating whether I need rudder or not ? I know I need it to some degree but im just trying to justify spending 200 + $ on a rudder.

When you fly, how often do you look your HDD?

Next time when you fly, keep your eye on the Attitude Direction Indicator (ADI) and especially on the slip indicator.

How much it moves and how often, will tell you the answer, based your flying style.

Then bind the normal button inputs to your HOTAS and try again and check how does your performance change. No need to keep them in the axis.